<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear List,</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Please, take care to post properly (as
the server automatically demands), as otherwise I become rather
overwhelmed wit all the different warning messages. Thanks Lou for
the tip about that.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Well, I see a problem going from
"percepts to concepts" as Lou claims below. Neuroscience has
nowadays a rare consensus on not dissociating PERCEPTION and
ACTION. The "Action Perception Cycle" is the most common
acceptation. The "concept" gets not too far from either side, and
usually it is incorporating elements of each kind, with different
predominance. Joaquín Fuster (2008 and 2014 I think) coined the
term "cognit" to refer to the intermediate stage, having both
percept ears and action legs (so to speak). The union of cognits
legs and ears (or legs and legs, ears and ears, etc.) would give
birth to different kinds of concepts, and the union of concepts
via shared cognits would give rise to conceptualizations,
sentences, etc. Having entered action in the world scheme is not
trivial at all. Our litmus test for reality is not that the
percept agrees with the concept, but with the action. It is, as we
consider in the world of science, the whole experimental part...
the "fact". As Goethe's Faust aptly says: "In the beginning was
the deed"!<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">My other brief pill refers again to
autopoiesis. A few cellular arguments not well tolerated (or only
partially some of them) by autopoiesis:</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--The enormous cellular importance of
protein degradation. The world of proteasomes (the cell "industry
of destruction") is fascinating, even in the simplest cells.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--The different classes of programmed
cell death, essentially apoptosis, is also of enormous
multicell--and even bacterial-- importance.</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--The absorption of external DNA is
quite frequent, and even customary in some bacteria. <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--The horizontal gene transmission is
of great evolutionary importance too (the world of phages,
plasmids, transposons...)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--A number of genes in E. coli are
never expressed in a regular life cycle (close to 30 or 40%,
depending on the happenstances)</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">--The revolutionary role of 'external'
viruses in the greatest evo transitions (Villarroel, Witzany).</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">So, even if you consider these caveats
fulfilled in larger and larger definitions of autopoiesis, there
is another point that may be quite troubling: information flow and
signaling disappear, and are substituted by the structural
coupling with the environment and the observer conceptualization
involvement. The big concern is that advancement of the life
cycle, as the central hub to which signaling or external flows
cohere, and to which biological meaning relates, does not occupy
its explanatory essential role... while adaptively advancing the
life cycle is the silver thread that connects all biological
world, including our own societies.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I understand that for a mathematician
the AP idea is quite handy, and fruitful, but for those interested
in the evolution of signals, sensibility, action, emotions, social
emotions, etc. is perhaps a stumbling block to overcome. By the
way, your previous post to Krassimir on information was quite
valuable, a firm standpoint which I share. I was trying to comment
on it, but my daily schedule is bizarre.<br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Best--Pedro <br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">El 12/01/2025 a las 11:38, Louis
Kauffman escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:8F4BCEDB-12E1-4248-A7D4-6F3ECEA09040@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Dear Plamen,
<div class="">I think you need to cut out the other recipients if
you want to send messages to fis.</div>
<div class="">You could do that by sending two emails. One just to
fis and the other to the LOF list.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In my opinion Steiner articulated very well the
concurrence of percept and concept that is at the center of our
direct realities.</div>
<div class="">There is a beginning here and it is deeper than the
current concepts of world and observers, objects and subjects.</div>
<div class="">A number of insights ensue from this, not the least
is the analogy with observation in quantum mechanics and the
possibility of a new way to handle all of that.</div>
<div class="">But we are beginners here and we do not have the
answers.</div>
<div class="">We have the possibility to learn anew.</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class="">Lou</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 12, 2025, at 2:53 AM, Dr. Plamen L.
Simeonov <<a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Y<span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">es, Kant was in
the beginning of this line and certainly all thinkers
later were influenced by him,, but mathematics as it
was developed from Hamilton onwards and used by the
20th century relativists, electro technicians and
quantum engineers was much more than electricity and
elementary particles (which were accommodated into
materialism), pluses and minuses only. In its essence
it were the bundle of multiple dimensions and number
types reflecting them (imaginary, complex and
hypercomplex); it was the search for the true human
nature, the freedom and the immortality of the soul
and its destiny path to perfection, which was
certainly a big problem for materialist science,
reductionism and the rulers of this world until today.
By the way, as for the introduction of David Booth I
meant in my earlier email that it is related to the
first book from Lou's Steiner list "The Fourth
Dimension"; it did not open properly so I was not able
to see the other books. But basically I wish to hook
on to the point that Steiner who knew these
developments and has made his own path demanded a new
mathematics invards to explain the phenomena beyond
pure observational externalism and relativism. He was
appealing to phenomenological mathematics involving
simultaneously the subject and the object of
observation, something that neither Einstein, nor the
QM wizards were able to manage until now. And that's
why we still stay stuck here with the old theories for
about 50 years since Everett.</span>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">All the best,</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Plamen</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"> </span>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"> </span>
<div class=""><font color="#073763"
face="arial, sans-serif" class=""><span
style="caret-color: rgb(7, 55, 99);" class=""><br
class="">
</span></font>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan
12, 2025 at 10:20 AM Baecker, Dirk <<a
href="mailto:Dirk.Baecker@zu.de"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">Dirk.Baecker@zu.de</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">one
may indeed think that Kant’s „attempt to
introduce the concept of negative quantities
[and entities] into philosophy [or, rather,
world wisdom]“ (1763) is still highly acute:<br
class="">
<br class="">
<a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Attempt*to*Introduce*the*Concept*of*Negative*Quantities*into*Philosophy__;KysrKysrKysr!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WsiJ-IcP3scBiWmR8H_8ezvbqyYnVVv_3zKCHMF-gLil2DocTCWwdW6MhVPNMKN1WL9L0N7io9IX2hlA$"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Attempt+to+Introduce+the+Concept+of+Negative+Quantities+into+Philosophy</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
> Am 12.01.2025 um 08:54 schrieb Dr. Plamen
L. Simeonov <<a
href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
moz-do-not-send="true">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a>>:<br
class="">
> <br class="">
> Yes, my advice is to read the
introduction to this book by David Booth
first. It reveals that the foundations of
Steiner's philosophy began much earlier in the
mid 19th century when the development of human
mind had attained a singularity point in the
descent of spirit/mind into matter with focus
on manufacturing products, mechanical
engineering and materialistic science for the
coming 20th century, and at the same time -
crucial developments in mathematics, which
stimulated also the emergence of the
psychological disciplines; all this being
demarcated by the works of such brilliant
mathematicians as Willian Rowan Hamilton, then
Ludwig Schlaeffii and Hermann Grassmann - both
school teachers ! -- then Howard Hinton and
Alicia Boole, who happened to be supported by
William James (and maybe even C.S. Peirce),
and so on. We are talking here about a missing
perspective on mathematics and the human
spirit which becomes apparent in Steiner's
anthroposophy. In this respect I would
recommend another book by him, also available
at z-library if you do the search: "Knowledge
of the Higher Worlds and Its Attainment". <br
class="">
> <br class="">
> All the best,<br class="">
> <br class="">
> Plamen<br class="">
></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis">http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</a>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas">https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas</a>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listas.unizar.es">http://listas.unizar.es</a>
----------
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>