[Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman) - Non-locality and Quantum Bayesianism (QBism)

Sat Jan 11 15:57:16 CET 2025

Dear Lou,
Thank you very much for your lecture yesterday on Zoom, where you so generously shared your time and profound understanding across so many fields of knowledge: from discussing the meaning of “=”, to the autopoietic construction of constraints in living systems, to the preferred sequence for teaching basic arithmetic operations (+, -, ×, ÷) to children.

We didn’t have time to explore the intriguing question you raised in your mail below:
"My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two ‘particles,’ separated in spacetime but entangled, have something (unarticulated) in common. How can this be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.
People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime, such as a wormhole (Susskind), but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us—even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics."
You added, intriguingly, that you are neither a Kantian nor a Platonist.

I, am Kantian in this respect, as I believe in Das Ding an Sich, “objective reality” or reality independent of humans.
We are constantly learning more about the world, and it is impossible to exhaust its resources for sense-making through our finite means. Our reality is a construction made of material found in the world.
As we learn, we change not only our understanding but also the world itself.
For example, bacteria and viruses existed during the time of Plato and Aristotle, even though they had no idea. Their understanding of sickness reflected their tools and methods.

Relating Epistemology to Non-Locality and Entanglement
In my humble opinion, the best way to think about non-locality and entanglement is as a simple consequence of conservation laws.
It means approaching it through Quantum Bayesianism (QBism).
Hans von Baeyer delivered an excellent New Year FIS lecture on this topic in 2014, which you can find in the FIS Archives:
New Year Lecture by Hans von Baeyer<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.mail-archive.com/fis@listas.unizar.es/msg01927.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VnabX3u8vJY6RBSSWEFPoF7RddjTh3b69TFtMd6aVdhVw6JTln4CBGtlfIYxQvnEuSrUNKwtbSPaD1v0BiXI2uwyOA6rS9GV$ >
He later published the book QBism: The Future of Quantum Physics.

Another, independent, voice is Inge S. Helland, a Norwegian statistician whose book Epistemic Processes: A Basis for Statistics and Quantum Theory gives a Bayesian epistemic perspective on quantum mechanics.

Epistemology of Entanglement
>From an epistemological standpoint, entanglement does not reflect a mysterious physical link between particles. Instead, it reveals correlations in our knowledge of the system (conservation laws for spin, momentum, energy).
In this framework:

  1.  The wavefunction represents an observer’s epistemological individual beliefs, not an ”objective” physical reality which is bigger than that.
  2.  Measurement is an active process where the observer interacts with reality to update their knowledge.
  3.  Epistemology is not passive—it is shaped through the observer’s interaction with reality, intertwining beliefs and actions.

This view aligns with Relational Quantum Mechanics, which emphasizes the role of observers and information in constructing reality.

Criticisms of Bayesianism
Critics often dismiss Bayesianism as "subjective", but this term is heavily loaded. A more accurate description would be “individual”. The initial step of any scientific inquiry is always individual—a single person thinking, measuring, or experimenting. Objectivity (or rather, intersubjectivity) arises through verification: when independent researchers reproduce the same theory, measurements, or experiments, the findings are provisionally accepted by the scientific community. Human knowledge is dynamic and constantly evolving, shaped by new discoveries and reinterpretations. QBism resonates with this process, highlighting how epistemology is active, human-centric, and participatory.

Why I favor QBism
QBism aligns with how I understand epistemology.

  *   It emphasizes active, distributed knowledge construction shaped by cognizing agents.
  *   Reality, in this view, is participatory, dynamic, and co-constructed through the actions of observers.

I believe this approach offers a parsimonious perspective on the nature of entanglement, non-locality, and the broader relationship between knowledge and reality. It aligns with themes from your New Year Lecture and extends naturally into applications in biology and cognitive science—areas central to my work on info-computation.
Notably, Karl Friston's well-known framework of Active Inference follows a similar logic, emphasizing the dynamic and participatory nature of knowledge construction.

Thank you again for the opportunity to engage in this conversation, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this perspective.

Best regards,
Gordana

From: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, 8 January 2025 at 09:49
To: Gordana CHALMERS <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)

Dear Gordana,
This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.
(Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process.
So it comes out different somehow.
More like the cartoon below.
One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and lots of discussion.

Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.
What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a collection
of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those
non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that keep us in chains.

Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.
Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from framing nothing.

My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two “particles” separated in
Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.
People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us
even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.

I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no distinctions whatever in “Reality”.
No space, no time, no thing.

Waiting for the next thought.
Best,
Lou

[cid:image001.jpg at 01DB6441.7BDF1170]

Dear All,
In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in context of other authors.
I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.

All the best,
Gordana

Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas Hofstadter reveals common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.

1. Disciplinary Cont
Aspect
Lou Kauffman
John Wheeler
Heinz von Foerster
Douglas Hofstadter
Field
Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology
Theoretical Physics
Cybernetics and Systems Theory
Cognitive Science and Philosophy
Key Concern
Formalization of recursion and self-reference
Information and the participatory nature of reality
Observing systems, recursion, constructivism
Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops

2. Core Ideas
Aspect
Kauffman
Wheeler
Von Foerster
Hofstadter
Recursion
Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.
Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of reality.
Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.
Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.
Self-Reference
Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.
Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.
Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.
Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."
Information
Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.
Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.
Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.
Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.
Observer’s Role
Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.
Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.
Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.
Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.

3. Philosophical Orientation
Aspect
Kauffman
Wheeler
Von Foerster
Hofstadter
Ontology
Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying biological and logical systems.
Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.
Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside distinctions.
Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.
Epistemology
Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and recursion.
Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.
Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.
Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.
Human-Centeredness
Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.
Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.
Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.
Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.

4. Commonalities and Differences
Commonalities
Recursion and Self-Reference
All four thinkers see recursion and self-reference as central to understanding systems, whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster), physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).
Role of Observers
The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively (Hofstadter).
Information as a Core Concept
Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for Wheeler, operational constructs for von Foerster, and cognitive patterns for Hofstadter).

Differences
Focus on Biology
Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.
Mathematical Formalism
Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the two with quantum theory.
Scope of Inquiry
Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics. Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused on human consciousness and cognition.

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com<mailto:loukau at gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41
To: Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com<mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com>>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)

Dear Krassimir and others,

It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!
I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.

Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics
Speaker: Louis H Kauffman

Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025

Join Zoom Meeting
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VnabX3u8vJY6RBSSWEFPoF7RddjTh3b69TFtMd6aVdhVw6JTln4CBGtlfIYxQvnEuSrUNKwtbSPaD1v0BiXI2uwyOLRp8sG_$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$>

Meeting ID: 480 917 5166
Passcode: 0rw2GP

Best,
Lou

On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com<mailto:itheaiss at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Plamen,
I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.
In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent in our everyday life.
I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system for operating with an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space, i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and practically unlimited length.
This is truly another world!

Dear Lou,
First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of Reproduction". But these are 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:
1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities and processes.
2. Information at the quantum level.
There will probably be something else...

With respect,
Krassimir

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