[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 118, Issue 26

[Krassimir Markov]

Dear Lou,
Recently, too many types of "information" have appeared here, which are
called "quantum".
I have a simple question:
What is "quantum information"?
Sincerely,
Krassimir

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На чт, 9.01.2025 г. в 1:06 <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> написа:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology,
>       logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman) (Louis Kauffman)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
> To: Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com>
> Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>, Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <
> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2025 17:06:29 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology,
> logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)
> Dear Jason,
> My favorite Zen Story!
>
> Yes, what you say is consistent with my view.
>
> There is a distinction we have and do not always recognize between the
> “corporeal” world of everyday perception/conception and the “physical”
> world of quantum states and evolutions.
> In quantum theory one makes this distinction. A physical state is modeled
> by a vector in a complex space (Hilbert space). It can evolve physically,
> deterministically by what are called unitary transformations.
> These preserve the “length” of the vector — which means this: The vector
> represents (as Heisenberg and Stu Kauffman like to say) the potentia of the
> situation.
> The vector represents all the possibilities that can possibly actualize in
> the corporeal world
> In relation to this state. Each possibility is a coordinate of the vector,
> a complex number. The sum of the absolute squares of these complex numbers
> adds to one (it might be an infinite sum).
> When a measurement is made, the vector actualizes as a definite event in
> the corporeal world and one of the possibilities occurs with “probability”
> the absolute square of its coordinate”.
> This means that the vector is carrying a probability distribution AND any
> quantum process preserves the total sum of the probabilities. In other
> words, a quantum process moves the probability distribution and the entire
> “Potentia”
> along from one state to the other. This preservation is called
> conservation of “quantum information”.
>
> Some imagine that quantum information solves the problem of consciousness.
> You can think about that.
>
> The evolution of potentia goes on deterministically unless there is a
> measurement.
> Measurement makes the potential into the actual at the corporeal level.
>
> The confusions that occur in most discussions about quantum mechanics have
> to do with how potential becomes actual and what is the meaning of actual.
> In the corporeal world we have qualitative as well as  quantitative
> measures. The qualitative is not seen in quantum measurement process.
> Quantum measurement process is strictly quantitative.
> So there are many many structures and distinctions in the corporeal world
> that are not part of that Hilbert space model. The famous Schrodinger’s Cat
> experiment is a good example. If you take the quantum model literally, then
> the cat after one hour is
> In a superposition state of |LiveCat> + |DeadCat> and requires a
> “measurement” to have the “collapse of the wave function” to Live or to
> Dead. Schrodinger orginally presented this as absurd, because we know that
> cats are not in superpositions.
> The point is that the cat is not in the Physical World of Determined
> Quantum Evolutions of Potentia. The cat is in the corporeal world and after
> one hour the cat is either alive or dead whether you open the door to the
> chamber or not.
> That is common sense. And Schrodinger did not expect that the others would
> abandon common sense to a world of superpositions of cats and many worlds.
> Yikes. But that is how it goes. Good theory gone wrong. And you have to
> admit that it
> remains a problem what is the distinction between the quantum physical and
> the corporeal.
>
> When we reach down to a tiny world of molecules and look for knotted DNA
> just like somehow rope in our hands, this is a daring gesture in the
> direction of the corporeal.
> Some people are working on the relation of these experiments with quantum
> states. The bonding of the molecules depends on quantum physics. You are
> right next to quantum chemistry.
> And you are also right next to the alternate possible where entirely new
> molecular structures might come into being.
>
> I made a distinction between the quantum physical world and the corporeal
> world.
>
> There is no distinction between the quantum world and the corporeal world.
>
> There is no mirror.
>
> Wittgenstein wrote:
>
>
> The great mirror does not exist.
> The subject does belong to the world.
> There is no mirror.
> Best,
> Lou
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2025, at 1:00 PM, Jason Hu <jasonthegoodman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Lou,
> To resonate with your point about the nothingness of nothing, I have been
> guessing for a long time since I heard about quantum entanglement: If we
> take those tiny little quantum as if they can be observer themselves, then
> they do not have this thing named "spacetime" in their view at all. Alas,
> "spacetime" is just a human construction coming from the human cognitive
> system, specifically Einsteins. And the independent "space" and "time" were
> constructed by earlier humans... not quantum! So, the human-named
> entanglement is not an issue of them at all.
> Is this consistent with your thoughts?
>
> I have to invoke a famous story in Buddhism. One senior monk wrote a poem
> on the wall of their temple:
>
> "The body is like a bodhi tree,
> The mind is like a bright mirror,
> Always wipe it, please,
> don't let it get dusty."
>
> Then, among the crowd, a younger junior monk wrote the following:
>
> "The bodhi tree is not a tree,
> nor is the mirror a mirror,
> there is *nothing* there,
> how can dust collect?"
> So, the junior monk became the Sixth Patriarch of Buddhism (Chan section).
> His name was Hui-neng, 638-713 AD.
>
> Cheers! - Jason
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:15 AM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <
> gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se> wrote:
>
>> Dear Lou,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for this wonderful and overwhelming answer! I will need a few
>> days to try to understand it as much as I can.
>>
>>
>>
>> You are right that the comparisons I sketched are very crude, but I hope
>> they serve as a starting point to orient the discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> When we learn, we use our previous knowledge to connect the dots. I have
>> been trying to connect from John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas
>> Hofstadter.
>>
>>
>>
>> The picture is vast, and the details are fuzzy (not just the details—the
>> entire construction feels fuzzy),
>> but it helps me to begin forming relationships and moving between the
>> dots.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course, the formalization you propose is quite different from the
>> formal systems pursued by logicians, and I appreciate the distinction.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks again for elucidating your position. I look forward to your
>> lecture on Friday, at noon Chicago time,
>> which I understand is 7 o’clock in the evening in Stockholm.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 January 2025 at 09:49
>> *To: *Gordana CHALMERS <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
>> *Cc: *fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology,
>> topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Gordana,
>>
>> This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of
>> formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something
>> like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.
>>
>> (Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a
>> logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of
>> diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process.
>>
>> So it comes out different somehow.
>>
>> More like the cartoon below.
>>
>> One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such
>> diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and
>> lots of discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do
>> can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work
>> of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.
>>
>> What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the
>> Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed
>> to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a
>> collection
>>
>> of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only
>> way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We
>> need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those
>>
>> non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that
>> keep us in chains.
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category
>> theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and
>> one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.
>>
>> Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from
>> framing nothing.
>>
>>
>>
>> My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This
>> discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two
>> “particles” separated in
>>
>> Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask
>> yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed
>> part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.
>>
>> People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a
>> wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps
>> simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us
>>
>> even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to
>> possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no
>> distinctions whatever in “Reality”.
>>
>> No space, no time, no thing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Waiting for the next thought.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear All,
>> In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in
>> context of other authors.
>>
>> I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on
>> Friday.
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Gordana
>>
>>
>>
>> *Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas
>> Hofstadter* reveals common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the
>> role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and
>> emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.
>>
>>
>> *1. Disciplinary Cont*
>>
>> *Aspect*
>>
>> *Lou Kauffman*
>>
>> *John Wheeler*
>>
>> *Heinz von Foerster*
>>
>> *Douglas Hofstadter*
>>
>> *Field*
>>
>> Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology
>>
>> Theoretical Physics
>>
>> Cybernetics and Systems Theory
>>
>> Cognitive Science and Philosophy
>>
>> *Key Concern*
>>
>> Formalization of recursion and self-reference
>>
>> Information and the participatory nature of reality
>>
>> Observing systems, recursion, constructivism
>>
>> Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops
>>
>>
>> *2. Core Ideas*
>>
>> *Aspect*
>>
>> *Kauffman*
>>
>> *Wheeler*
>>
>> *Von Foerster*
>>
>> *Hofstadter*
>>
>> *Recursion*
>>
>> Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.
>>
>> Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of
>> reality.
>>
>> Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.
>>
>> Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.
>>
>> *Self-Reference*
>>
>> Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.
>>
>> Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.
>>
>> Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.
>>
>> Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."
>>
>> *Information*
>>
>> Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.
>>
>> Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.
>>
>> Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.
>>
>> Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive
>> structures.
>>
>> *Observer’s Role*
>>
>> Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.
>>
>> Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.
>>
>> Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.
>>
>> Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.
>>
>>
>> *3. Philosophical Orientation*
>>
>> *Aspect*
>>
>> *Kauffman*
>>
>> *Wheeler*
>>
>> *Von Foerster*
>>
>> *Hofstadter*
>>
>> *Ontology*
>>
>> Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying
>> biological and logical systems.
>>
>> Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.
>>
>> Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside
>> distinctions.
>>
>> Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.
>>
>> *Epistemology*
>>
>> Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and
>> recursion.
>>
>> Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.
>>
>> Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.
>>
>> Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.
>>
>> *Human-Centeredness*
>>
>> Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.
>>
>> Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.
>>
>> Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.
>>
>> Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.
>>
>>
>> *4. Commonalities and Differences*
>>
>> *Commonalities*
>>
>> *Recursion and Self-Reference*
>>
>> All four thinkers see *recursion and self-reference as central *to
>> understanding systems, whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster),
>> physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).
>>
>> *Role of Observers*
>>
>> The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks,
>> whether mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler),
>> operationally (von Foerster), or cognitively (Hofstadter).
>>
>> *Information as a Core Concept*
>>
>> Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though
>> interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for
>> Wheeler, operational constructs for von Foerster, and cognitive patterns
>> for Hofstadter).
>>
>>
>>
>> *Differences*
>>
>> *Focus on Biology*
>>
>> Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while
>> Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.
>>
>> *Mathematical Formalism*
>>
>> Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster
>> and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the
>> two with quantum theory.
>>
>> *Scope of Inquiry*
>>
>> Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics.
>> Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and
>> constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused on human consciousness and
>> cognition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <
>> loukau at gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41
>> *To: *Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
>> *Cc: *fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology,
>> topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)
>>
>>
>> Dear Krassimir and others,
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!
>>
>> I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.
>>
>>
>> Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and
>> cybernetics
>>
>> Speaker: Louis H Kauffman
>>
>>
>> Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025
>>
>>
>> Join Zoom Meeting
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XCZ0nzDJso3onQVxZ2awMiI-VncAbCEOi1NltaN0TSqxdTSep3fxgLLOhwb9nwf7fvTv88uUyKHy0vjYM-M$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$>
>>
>>
>> Meeting ID: 480 917 5166
>>
>> Passcode: 0rw2GP
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Plamen,
>> I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.
>> In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent
>> in our everyday life.
>>
>> I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial
>> information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for
>> multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system
>> for operating with an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space,
>> i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and
>> practically unlimited length.
>> This is truly another world!
>>
>> Dear Lou,
>> First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to
>> familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was
>> assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading
>> "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of Reproduction". But these are
>> 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I
>> already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:
>> 1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological
>> entities and processes.
>> 2. Information at the quantum level.
>> There will probably be something else...
>>
>> With respect,
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>> [image: Image removed by sender.]
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