[Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)

[Jason Hu]

Dear Lou,
To resonate with your point about the nothingness of nothing, I have been
guessing for a long time since I heard about quantum entanglement: If we
take those tiny little quantum as if they can be observer themselves, then
they do not have this thing named "spacetime" in their view at all. Alas,
"spacetime" is just a human construction coming from the human cognitive
system, specifically Einsteins. And the independent "space" and "time" were
constructed by earlier humans... not quantum! So, the human-named
entanglement is not an issue of them at all.
Is this consistent with your thoughts?

I have to invoke a famous story in Buddhism. One senior monk wrote a poem
on the wall of their temple:

"The body is like a bodhi tree,
The mind is like a bright mirror,
Always wipe it, please,
don't let it get dusty."

Then, among the crowd, a younger junior monk wrote the following:

"The bodhi tree is not a tree,
nor is the mirror a mirror,
there is *nothing* there,
how can dust collect?"
So, the junior monk became the Sixth Patriarch of Buddhism (Chan section).
His name was Hui-neng, 638-713 AD.

Cheers! - Jason

On Wed, Jan 8, 2025 at 3:15 AM Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <
gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se> wrote:

> Dear Lou,
>
>
>
> Thank you for this wonderful and overwhelming answer! I will need a few
> days to try to understand it as much as I can.
>
>
>
> You are right that the comparisons I sketched are very crude, but I hope
> they serve as a starting point to orient the discussion.
>
>
>
> When we learn, we use our previous knowledge to connect the dots. I have
> been trying to connect from John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas
> Hofstadter.
>
>
>
> The picture is vast, and the details are fuzzy (not just the details—the
> entire construction feels fuzzy),
> but it helps me to begin forming relationships and moving between the
> dots.
>
>
>
> Of course, the formalization you propose is quite different from the
> formal systems pursued by logicians, and I appreciate the distinction.
>
>
>
> Thanks again for elucidating your position. I look forward to your lecture
> on Friday, at noon Chicago time,
> which I understand is 7 o’clock in the evening in Stockholm.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Gordana
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 January 2025 at 09:49
> *To: *Gordana CHALMERS <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>
> *Cc: *fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology,
> topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)
>
>
>
> Dear Gordana,
>
> This sounds approximately right, except that when you speak of
> formalization in relation to Kauffman it sounds like it might be something
> like the formal systems that the logicians propagate.
>
> (Base structures are letters/characters. Then everything is built up in a
> logico-textual manner out of text strings.) Kauffman is an advocate of
> diagrammatic systems, games, playing and process.
>
> So it comes out different somehow.
>
> More like the cartoon below.
>
> One only groks such things in the course of human interaction, and such
> diagrammatic systems are meaningless without observers/interpretants and
> lots of discussion.
>
>
>
> Oh, by the way, it is a tenet of my profession that everything that we do
> can be translated into the logician type formal systems. It does not work
> of course, but it is remarkable how much does go over.
>
> What is so interesting is what does not go over. For example, since the
> Greeks we have the notion of empty space. But the only way we have managed
> to formalize this in logico-formalist terms is by saying that a space is a
> collection
>
> of points (not empty at all!) with some special structure. Oy! The only
> way you get to empty space is by being silent, and then it shows itself. We
> need those non-thoughts to do our work, and we humans need those
>
> non-thoughts to do the work of crossing and erasing the boundaries that
> keep us in chains.
>
>
>
> Maybe you will come back and answer this last paragraph with category
> theory. We can talk about that. The simplest category has one object and
> one morphism. Also not quite empty. The simplest set is simpler.
>
> Just a frame for nothing: { }. The form we take to exist arises from
> framing nothing.
>
>
>
> My favorite conundrum is non-locality in quantum mechanics. This
> discussion was framed for cybernetics/biology. But consider that two
> “particles” separated in
>
> Spacetime but entangled have something (unarticulated) in common and ask
> yourself how this can be? I think the best answer is that they are indeed
> part of a larger whole, a whole that needs a wider base than spacetime.
>
> People try to make the connection concrete and in spacetime such as a
> wormhole (Susskind) but I believe that it is deeper than that, perhaps
> simpler than that, having all to do with the way distinctions appear to us
>
> even though they are purely imaginary. This paragraph was written just to
> possibly get you going in the direction of fundamental physics.
>
>
>
> I am neither a Kantian nor a Platonist and I suggest that there are no
> distinctions whatever in “Reality”.
>
> No space, no time, no thing.
>
>
>
> Waiting for the next thought.
>
> Best,
>
> Lou
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> In anticipation of Lou’s talk, I made this attempt to put Lou’s ideas in
> context of other authors.
>
> I have some questions too, but I save them for after the lecture on Friday.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Gordana
>
>
>
>
>
> *Comparing Lou Kauffman, John Wheeler, Heinz von Foerster, and Douglas
> Hofstadter* reveals common themes of recursion, self-reference, and the
> role of observers in constructing reality, but their approaches and
> emphases differ based on their disciplinary focuses.
>
>
>
> *1. Disciplinary Cont*
>
> *Aspect*
>
> *Lou Kauffman*
>
> *John Wheeler*
>
> *Heinz von Foerster*
>
> *Douglas Hofstadter*
>
> *Field*
>
> Mathematics, Cybernetics, Biology
>
> Theoretical Physics
>
> Cybernetics and Systems Theory
>
> Cognitive Science and Philosophy
>
> *Key Concern*
>
> Formalization of recursion and self-reference
>
> Information and the participatory nature of reality
>
> Observing systems, recursion, constructivism
>
> Consciousness, creativity, and self-referential loops
>
>
>
> *2. Core Ideas*
>
> *Aspect*
>
> *Kauffman*
>
> *Wheeler*
>
> *Von Foerster*
>
> *Hofstadter*
>
> *Recursion*
>
> Formalizes recursion using eigenforms, knot theory, and distinctions.
>
> Recursion appears in quantum phenomena and the iterative actualization of
> reality.
>
> Recursion underpins feedback loops and system dynamics.
>
> Recursion is central to "strange loops" that generate consciousness.
>
> *Self-Reference*
>
> Eigenforms model systems observing themselves mathematically.
>
> Observers influence reality through self-referential acts of measurement.
>
> Observers construct themselves within systems through reflexivity.
>
> Self-referential loops create the sense of "I."
>
> *Information*
>
> Encodes recursion and biological replication processes mathematically.
>
> Reality arises from information (bits) processed through observation.
>
> Information is a feedback-driven construct of observers.
>
> Information transforms into meaning through recursive cognitive structures.
>
> *Observer’s Role*
>
> Observer is implicit in the mathematics of self-reference and recursion.
>
> Observer "creates" reality by participating in quantum processes.
>
> Observer is embedded in systems, shaping reality through distinctions.
>
> Observer is a recursive entity, defined by strange loops.
>
>
>
> *3. Philosophical Orientation*
>
> *Aspect*
>
> *Kauffman*
>
> *Wheeler*
>
> *Von Foerster*
>
> *Hofstadter*
>
> *Ontology*
>
> Self-reference and recursion are universal principles underlying
> biological and logical systems.
>
> Reality is informational and participatory, emerging through observation.
>
> Reality is constructed by observers, with no objective existence outside
> distinctions.
>
> Reality and identity emerge from recursive cognitive processes.
>
> *Epistemology*
>
> Knowledge arises through formal systems modeling distinctions and
> recursion.
>
> Knowledge is observer-dependent, grounded in informational interactions.
>
> Observers generate knowledge through recursive observation and feedback.
>
> Knowledge is emergent, shaped by cognitive and symbolic recursion.
>
> *Human-Centeredness*
>
> Focuses on universal principles; less anthropocentric.
>
> Anthropocentric in framing the universe as participatory.
>
> Embeddedness of observers is central but not anthropocentric.
>
> Deeply human-centered, exploring how recursion shapes human thought.
>
>
>
> *4. Commonalities and Differences*
>
> *Commonalities*
>
> *Recursion and Self-Reference*
>
> All four thinkers see *recursion and self-reference as central *to
> understanding systems, whether biological (Kauffman, von Foerster),
> physical (Wheeler), or cognitive (Hofstadter).
>
> *Role of Observers*
>
> The observer is integral in shaping reality across all frameworks, whether
> mathematically (Kauffman), quantum-mechanically (Wheeler), operationally
> (von Foerster), or cognitively (Hofstadter).
>
> *Information as a Core Concept*
>
> Each thinker places information at the heart of their theories, though
> interpreted differently (as formal systems for Kauffman, quantum bits for
> Wheeler, operational constructs for von Foerster, and cognitive patterns
> for Hofstadter).
>
>
>
> *Differences*
>
> *Focus on Biology*
>
> Kauffman and von Foerster deeply engage with biological systems, while
> Wheeler and Hofstadter primarily use them as metaphors.
>
> *Mathematical Formalism*
>
> Kauffman emphasizes rigorous mathematical modeling, whereas von Foerster
> and Hofstadter lean toward conceptual approaches, and Wheeler bridges the
> two with quantum theory.
>
> *Scope of Inquiry*
>
> Kauffman seeks universal principles spanning biology and mathematics.
> Wheeler focuses on the cosmos. Von Foerster centers on systems and
> constructivism. Hofstadter is more focused on human consciousness and
> cognition.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis Kauffman <
> loukau at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 23:41
> *To: *Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] Biologic - at the interface between biology,
> topology, logic and cybernetics (by Lou Kauffman)
>
>
>
> Dear Krassimir and others,
>
>
>
> It seems to me that I should not have sent all those papers!
>
> I offer a talk on these matters this Friday, Noon Chicago time.
>
>
>
> Title: Biologic - at the interface between biology, topology, logic and
> cybernetics
>
> Speaker: Louis H Kauffman
>
>
>
> Time: Noon, Chicago time. Friday, January 10, 2025
>
>
>
> Join Zoom Meeting
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QX04XLW32lyQ2dah7yEn_HPHaelzIy7fmzdIClz9omDfKOinozRDHO4LHHqMbPYPU9eJ3xolMQrqHfN6IHwiBfT4isNH$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uic.zoom.us/j/4809175166?pwd=SHp0amNNLzJhUHBncVRxT3lBNjIwUT09__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XdwZRY8ylgw5YoRAg_UFqz2_YVnj6IuLdZAV5CZ5Soh8UtJCpiC0Fj4PFGk_aENf8x4ysT_KT6hs25dX$>
>
>
>
> Meeting ID: 480 917 5166
>
> Passcode: 0rw2GP
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Lou
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2025, at 1:50 PM, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Plamen,
> I take your note on multidimensionality as something very important.
> In this regard, I would like to note that multidimensionality is inherent
> in our everyday life.
>
> I myself designed and participated in the implementation of an industrial
> information system that has been operating for 30 years and is used for
> multidimensional modeling of business processes. At its core lies a system
> for operating with an infinitely-dimensionally numbered information space,
> i.e. data is stored on the basis of coordinate vectors with a variable and
> practically unlimited length.
> This is truly another world!
>
> Dear Lou,
> First of all, I would like to note that I, like Plamen, need time to
> familiarize myself with and complete the difficult "homework" that was
> assigned to us. At the moment, I am very carefully and in depth reading
> "Self-Reference, Biologic and the Structure of Reproduction". But these are
> 71 pages, and I have to familiarize myself with more text. However, I
> already have two topics in mind that I would like us to talk about:
> 1. Multidimensional languages and systems for modeling biological entities
> and processes.
> 2. Information at the quantum level.
> There will probably be something else...
>
> With respect,
> Krassimir
>
>
>
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