[Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis (& KARL SESSION)
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Sun Dec 14 22:39:24 CET 2025
Dear List,
Let me start by recognizing Kate Peil and Lou Kauffman for their work in
the session on Karl's legacy. Kate has written a thoughtful summary of
Karl's main views that can be downloaded from fis web pages, at:
*https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/resources/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VrRfn-C8Vd2rZstvLtzEA3_dMTIys1KYXRdFACWI1yARN5KVxDvH7hcuDjR3V4M7E-JQC8Qa7mGOHbAjvB-XKF5Tdjpf$ * Have a glance, "merece la pena"
as we say in Spanish. Also, the session was recorded and will appear in
IAIS Dialogs: *https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/@IAISDIALOGUES*__;Kg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VrRfn-C8Vd2rZstvLtzEA3_dMTIys1KYXRdFACWI1yARN5KVxDvH7hcuDjR3V4M7E-JQC8Qa7mGOHbAjvB-XKPkThK5u$
About AP, please note that it was proposed as a pandisciplinary or
metatheory of cognition for the whole living. Interesting in the 70s in
spite of its evident lack of biological substance, but 50 years ago the
accumulation of anomalies (I telegraphed a few of them) have made its
maintenance really problematic--as Kuhn would have said. That it can be
supported by people working in mathematical or logical or philosophical
grounds is OK, but remember please that "the tree of knowledge" was
proposed not exactly for those fields but for the entire life. As
wikipedia blandly acknowledges: "The influence of /Autopoiesis/ in
mainstream biology was limited. Autopoiesis is not commonly used as the
criterion for life...", citing from an aggiornamento proposed by
Razeto-Barry, Pablo (October 2012). "Autopoiesis 40 Years Later. A
Review and A Reformulation"
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232231194__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VrRfn-C8Vd2rZstvLtzEA3_dMTIys1KYXRdFACWI1yARN5KVxDvH7hcuDjR3V4M7E-JQC8Qa7mGOHbAjvB-XKGIW-LMd$ >. /Origins of Life/.
*42* (6): 543–567.
Best --Pedro
El 14/12/2025 a las 11:59, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch escribió:
> The recognition that “autopoiesis” is not some kind of monolithic,
> spontaneous, /sui generis/ process has been long in coming. For me, it
> is at best an appearance-reality duality, without explanatory power.
> If one agrees that “autopoiesis” does not operate like an on-off
> switch, then there must be some intermediate stages or structures, as
> well as some movement between them. The “auto-“ is then clearly a
> misnomer but let us go on. It is these details of real processes that
> is, of any real change for which Stéphane Lupasco proposed a movement
> between primarily actual to primarily potential and /vice versa/,
> alternately and reciprocally. This sinusoidal view of process is
> certainly to be found elsewhere, at least in “potential” form, but
> Lupasco deserves the historical credit for having formulated it.
> Identities – “my theory” – thus appear for what they are,
> idealizations cut off from their opposites or, in reality, not
> contradictions but counteractions. /Pace /Steve, one must be able to
> deal with /discontinuous /exchange, as well a continuous.
> There is still no accepted “language” in which to express these
> principles. I have tried, of course, a language of energy, following
> Lupasco. Modern, post-Bertalanffy systems theory comes perhaps close,
> as does Steve’s Autopoietic Ecology, since it recognizes the
> limitations of static formulations of the dynamic real
> world,/including /its domains that are binary to all intentas and
> purposes.
> I hope a renewed dialogue is possible, without recourse to the “baby”
> diagrams of Peirce and Wittgenstein
> Thanks and best,
> Joseph
>> Le 13.12.2025 20:10 CET, Steve Watson <sw10014 at cam.ac.uk> a écrit :
>> Dear Lou, dear colleagues,
>> Thank you for posting the 1974 Varela, Maturana, and Uribe paper — it
>> is extremely helpful to have the discussion re-anchored in the
>> original formulation.
>> I fully agree with the point you emphasise: autopoietic systems are
>> not materially or energetically closed. They exist only through
>> continuous exchange with their environment, while preserving an
>> organisational invariance across that exchange. The simple protocell
>> model in the paper remains one of the clearest demonstrations of this
>> idea.
>> This is also the sense in which I use expressions such as O ≈ F(O):
>> not as a claim about self-containment, energetic closure, or
>> perpetual motion, but as a shorthand for organisational persistence
>> across transformation. I should probably make that explicit more
>> often, as the notation clearly invites misreadings.
>> For avoidance of doubt, Autopoietic Ecology does not treat
>> autopoiesis as a universal or exclusive explanatory principle. It
>> treats it as one type of organisational dynamic that becomes
>> interesting precisely when systems are open, fragile, metabolically
>> dependent, and capable of breakdown as well as persistence. The
>> ecological emphasis is meant to foreground coupling, constraint, and
>> reorganisation rather than purity or closure.
>> I appreciate your reminder of how carefully these distinctions were
>> drawn in the original work. It helps keep the discussion focused on
>> what autopoiesis was actually intended to say — and what later
>> extensions should remain accountable to.
>> Warm regards,
>> Steve
>> Sent from Outlook for iOS
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://aka.ms/o0ukef__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RkQN2OV63tPC5SkQehKl68utm5y4RNCuvAzahTMs7Guc-nNsFbJ1xenO8zci4NCEraNL98_xj7uBmedwO4jb$>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Louis
>> Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 13, 2025 5:43:58 PM
>> *To:* Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Current remarks/Autopoiesis
>> It is still worth while to read the original paper by Maturana,
>> Varela and Uribe.
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!VrRfn-C8Vd2rZstvLtzEA3_dMTIys1KYXRdFACWI1yARN5KVxDvH7hcuDjR3V4M7E-JQC8Qa7mGOHbAjvB-XKKv-qSvD$
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://monoskop.org/images/d/dd/Varela_Maturana_Uribe_1974_Autopoiesis.pdf__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WyWMlWnFm0o4ncLeSN2bah-w8NstuK2jGIYI4dDC6K3eiM--0f70muEN4SkRLS50fLMhSd0qnVj-BUy1$>
>>
>> Here is a link to that paper.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2025 at 3:16 PM Pedro C. Marijuán
>> <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear List,
>> When I hear on autopiesis, my impression is that many people
>> continue to be blindly tied to a conceptualization, interesting
>> in its origins and counterpoise to then dominant reductionist
>> stances, but inconsequential with its biological-cellular
>> grounding --even in that very time, but even more in our times. I
>> argued past months on the AP weakness regarding apoptosis &
>> protein degradation, many genes rarely expressed along the life
>> cycle, openness to obtain foreign dna from the environment,
>> plasmids & phages uptake, horizontal gene transmission, multiple
>> generation of gene novelties, sex & recombinations, etc. About
>> information in AP, "signaling" is not accepted as such, but as
>> "structural coupling with the niche" (so, nothing about an
>> external information flow or the like). About the obvious need
>> of, say, an energy flow there is no realization that a previous
>> sensing of ALL those items is needed. The revolution in
>> prokaryotic signaling brought by the discovery of "One Component
>> Systems" (in the hundreds in each bacteria) in last two decades
>> clarify that point--how the external substances are first
>> "tasted" and later introjected. The interception of an
>> information flow best adapted to the ongoing life cycle is
>> continuously made. So, the living cell is just "informational":
>> in its self-production, in its relationship with the environment,
>> and in its generation of multi-cell complexity.
>> To be continued one of these days.
>> Best regards,
>> --Pedro
>> . El 10/12/2025 a las 23:08, Krassimir Markov escribió:
>>>
>>> Dear Steve,
>>>
>>> I respect your opinion and understanding of the world through
>>> AE, but still there are some reasonable scientific boundaries
>>> that should not be crossed. Here is a small example.
>>>
>>> Air existed before we were born and, I hope, if there is no
>>> destructive war instigated by russia, it will continue to exist
>>> after our death. At the same time, without air we cannot live,
>>> i.e. we are an open system that constantly exchanges resources
>>> with the environment. In other words, living organisms are not
>>> autopoietic systems. To convince yourself of this statement,
>>> just stop breathing. The conviction in the truth of the
>>> statement will come to you only after a minute or two and you
>>> will probably accept that your operator should be written
>>>
>>> O=F(O, Input, Output).
>>>
>>> I am writing this in connection with your statement that
>>> "Material processes and interpretive activity are not
>>> alternatives; they are two sides of the same ecological dynamic.
>>> Neither can be shown to precede the other.” which I cannot
>>> accept as true.
>>>
>>> Just as there are no closed autopoietic systems, so there is no
>>> reality that cannot exist without interpretation.
>>>
>>> The ecological dynamic you are talking about is a mental
>>> structure and, of course, in it properly the mental structures
>>> that reflect the material processes and the mental structures
>>> that interpret them are dialectically connected in
>>> consciousness, and yes - they are two sides of a common mental
>>> structure, if we can even talk about sides in mental structures.
>>>
>>> Dear Eric,
>>>
>>> I completely agree with your thoughts. Indeed, the study of the
>>> processes of interaction between people is very important and
>>> has great significance. Unfortunately, my impression is that
>>> most researchers adhere to the deeply erroneous and inapplicable
>>> to humans Shannon's paradigm.
>>>
>>> Yes, the theory of signal transmission is wonderfully applied in
>>> technical data transmission systems, where the basic principle
>>> is "copy/paste". In other words, the image that is formed in the
>>> recipient's memory completely (100%!!!) coincides with the image
>>> in the sender's memory. Any deviation is considered an error and
>>> requires re-sending the data, as well as the application of
>>> error-resistant codes during transmission.
>>>
>>> In humans, this is absolutely impossible and inapplicable.
>>> "Copy/paste" cannot happen due to the nature of the interaction
>>> between people, which is at the level of meaning, and not at the
>>> level of signals (reflections). The sender (a person or group of
>>> people) externalizes their mental structures (for example, this
>>> letter), and the recipient reflects what they have received and
>>> gives it their own meaning. It is impossible in this process to
>>> obtain an exact copy of the image from the source's memory in
>>> the receiver's memory. Therefore, it is correct to speak of
>>> "information interaction" in people, and of "communication" in
>>> technical systems. I am attaching a slide from my lecture at the
>>> IS4SI 2025 Summit, which contains the brilliant thought of the
>>> Bulgarian poet Pencho Slaveykov, expressed more than a century ago.
>>>
>>> With respect,
>>>
>>> Krassimir
>>>
>>> image.png
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTuKkbEq3o-edqcFbLUT6Fj6mBkdCrLywyifmxx0aOnY7XGPCXlscdrBh4P_vF2wg7E_72E8WBjjtvbtkLc$>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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