[Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Thu Nov 7 03:39:45 CET 2024

Thank you, Pedro, for your thoughtful post. I hope some people will react, and we will kick the ball towards some goal.  Alternatively, the discussion might evolve by random mutations.

By the way, Gordana and Sheri: more thoughts about the relationship between cybernetics and complex systems theory with evolution?

Peter
________________________________
From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2024 12:18 PM
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fwd: Re: New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Peter, Joseph, and List,

Thanks for maintaining the discussion. First, let me disagree with some of the previous opinions. My own impression on Eastern philosophy is that historically it shows an interesting resemblance with some natural processes of different sciences (mostly quantum physics), but at the level of generalities and without much possibilities of advancing scientific knowledge by itself, neither theoretically nor experimentally--historically it didn't. And it didn't create social schemes of national/supranational order beyond the stigmas and defects of Western societies either. Creating complex societies, maintaining them and designing efficient institutions is hardly difficult for all human cultures, up to now. In my opinion, the 1960s and 1970s cultural fashions overvalued the oriental theme (eg, Capra's Tao of Physics). Anyhow, I am open to introduce nuances in the above generalizations.

I much appreciate, Joseph, your mention of Michael Conrad. As veteran FISers know, his "vertical information flow" was a seminal contribution to launch the FIS enterprise, more than 30 years ago... My own opinion on the new physics he championed is of very relative value. We really joined views at the molecular level (enzymes, molecular computing, molecular recognition), in the schemes of intra-neuronal processing, in neuronal populations, in adaptability... and also in the need to link these natural science views with genuine human processes and the characteristics of social-economic realms. His chapter in 1996 FIS proceedings (BioSystems) is a great compilation of his whole thought.

About other comments, this is not the place for me to argue in favor of solving the conundrums of the information term. Peter has chosen the discussion of an alternative, important term, feedback, that has a towering presence in nature and in behavioral and social processes in general. Every time we engage in conversation we implicitly expect the multiple materialization of these feedbacks--or ask for them with a ? sign. Or in any occasion we may try to buy or sell something we suffer them. The market is but a gigantic, distributed system of feedbacks (and of other processes)... Right, we may have many intriguing points to discuss. I am personally fascinated by the human omnipresence of laughter feedbacks.

To close this brief response, let me state that we have insensibly entered into the genre of narratives: tentatively trying to anchor them in different disciplinary views. It is tantalizing, but perhaps we cannot advance as far as we wish neither in the coherence that Joseph was inquiring nor in the inquire on feedbacks themselves. But aren't they necessary exercises within the "Art of Knowledge"?

Best regards--Pedro

 El 06/11/2024 a las 10:37, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> escribió:
Dear Peter and All,

In spite of much goodwill, the discussion still seems to me to lack agreement on the nature of the foundational contributions to science that a more "Eastern" philosophy and logic might bring. The reference to Fromm, new to me, was of interest, but has he not just served up another
duality of the kind I think we should avoid?

To paraphrase Stafford Beer, "To have and to be, that humanity (or whatever)".

I say this, again not be to "contrary", but to try to make sure that no principles get stated in isolation from their environment, not only the equivalent of spatial but also temporal.

As Pedro and Peter know, Michael Conrad conceived of some new physics at the most fundamental level of reality. I would like to ask our two "rocks" if and how these principles might help clarify some of the current biological (or biophysical) issues in the debate.

Best wishes,
Joseph
---------- Message d'origine ----------
De : Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com><mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
À : Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu><mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>
CC : fis <fis at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
Date : 29.10.2024 23:33 CET
Sujet : Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Peter, all,

I think there is a critical question here about the extent to which the cybernetics and complexity science are haunted by Darwin. Both Gordana's and Sheri's posts highlight the emerging revision of biology, and we should thank Alex for sparking this with reference to perennial philosophy.

To see whether there is a case to answer with regard to cybernetics and Darwin, it is helpful to examine some of the contemporary critiques of cybernetics from social theorists. For example, Erich Fromm complains: "people of the cybernetic religion constantly adapt their egos according to the principle: "I am as you desire me"" (To have or To Be, p121).

Equally Horkheimer argues: "Just as all life today tends increasingly to be subjected to rationalization and planning, so the life of each individual, including his most hidden impulses, which formerly constituted his private domain, must now take the demands of rationalization and planning into account: the individual's self-preservation presupposes his adjustment to the requirements for the preservation of the system. He no longer has room to evade the system. And just as the process of rationalization is no longer the result of the anonymous forces of the market, but is decided in the consciousness of a planning minority, so the mass of subjects must deliberately adjust themselves: the subject must, so to speak, devote all his energies to being 'in and of the movement of things' in the terms of the pragmatistic definition" (Eclipse of Reason)

The key uniting theme is "adaptation to environment" - it is phenotypic adaptation to a present environment. Meanwhile emergence is accounted for through synchronic stochastic processes.

The new biology is different, and more in tune with what Alex had to say. Phenotypic selection is driven by internal selection mechanisms which reference an evolutionary history of epigenetic inheritance. Moreover, phenotypic selection serves an epigenetic purpose, where the phenotype is a vehicle for the next generation of adaptation. In other words, this is fundamentally diachronic, historically-oriented selection. It's not a thermostat... and, perhaps more importantly, it's not random.

Interestingly, the basic idea of internal selection (albeit without the historical/epigenetic diachronic mechanism) has been around for a long time. Very interesting to compare with Lancelot Law Whyte here: Lancelot Law Whyte, Internal factors in evolution - PhilPapers<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://philpapers.org/rec/WHYIFI__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghPbZieQA$>

So perhaps the first challenge is to decide whether there is a problem here - whether our thinking about complexity and feedback is deficient in a fundamental way, which relates to Darwinian theory. (This may of course include our thinking about information!). If people believe this is the case, then the challenge is to think what we do about it.

Best wishes,

Mark

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 at 21:55, Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>> wrote:

Thank you for your feedback. I needed a little time to give up my initial intention. I had some framework in mind about the concept of feedback, but during the discussion, I realized I had the chance to read and digest other ideas.

++ I am afraid that some emails went to my junk mail box and might have been deleted. If I did not answer, I probably unintentionally deleted your mail. Please resend if it is possible! ++

Where are we now?

- Karl  suggested: "Let us build a feedback based circular system that functions, at first. Let us investigate in a subsequent step, what are critical components of that system."
- Alex offers an optimistic perspective. He states that there is an approach, namely Perennial Philosophy, that helps to avoid catastrophic extinction.
- Mark associates Perennial Philosophy with the concept of Phenotype as an Agent for Epigenetic Inheritance (based on a paper by Torday & Miller. Denis Noble and  Philip Ball were mentioned.
- Joe mentioned French Philosophy—Jean Baudrillard, and implicitly postmodernism. I am not familiar with the works of Augustin Berque. With a little jump I mention hermeneutics, and the cyclic perpsective of understanding. I believe that hermeneutics is an important concept in brain theory (with Ichiro Tsuda Hermeneutic approach to the brain: Process versus Device?
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8sRs020l$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=q832g60AAAAJ&citation_for_view=q832g60AAAAJ:Y0pCki6q_DkC__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUovXjy9$> )

Gordana's post is a game-changer in our discussion. We all know that the  Modern (neo-Darwinian) Synthesis has been challenged, and she gave a list of newer ideas of the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" by Denis Noble.
I like the idea of analyzing evolution in cybernetic terms. Wiener's approach is based on the assumption (?) that machines are organisms are goal-seeking systems. How about evolution? As we know, neo-Darwinism assumes random mutation and implies that evolution is open-ended without a goal. I (not very profoundly) know some papers by Daniel W McShea about Evolutionary trends and goal-directedness.

This is a huge topic, and I am not the most appropriate person to lead the discussion. In any case, one defender of the now classical theory is Jerry Coyne. See his blog  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8k4eMkxq$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2024/02/12/yet-another-misguided-attempt-to-revise-evolution/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCYtcx6-5$>

Briefly, I saw Sheri's paper in BioSystems when it was published, but I have to read it more attentively. The concept of self-referential information processing is very important to me.

So, my dear friends, how can we continue the conversation?

If you are in Europe or in India, good night!

Peter

________________________________
From: Markose, Sheri <scher at essex.ac.uk<mailto:scher at essex.ac.uk>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 1:40 PM
To: Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se<mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>>; Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: RE: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Peter, Gordana and All

Let me add to the major Revisions to the theory of Evolution theme, which has come about as  result of advances in gene science.   This has moved the needle away from the flawed Neo-Darwinian Synthesis (NDS) on random mutation and natural selection.

Gordana in the list you gave below, please note that the major game changer to the NDS came with the discoveries made by the  1983 Nobel Prize Winner Barbara McClintock who discovered what are called transposable elements (TE)  that scissor and paste ( Transposons)  and copy paste (Retrotransposons). Genomic dynamics and changes or genomic /novelty mostly require Retrotransposons which move around in the host genome and convert their copied RNA into DNA of the genome by reverse transcription typically in a new site.   Think how we edit a digital word doc by copy  paste… No random mutation here.

Amazingly, 98% of the advanced eukaryote genome is made up of such non-coding transposable elements (mistakenly called junk DNA) while only 2% is protein coding.

As TEs have viral software origins, this source of diversity can also be harmful to the genome and has to be kept under check by a stringent means.  Many moons ago my FIS contribution called this genomic blockchain using a 21 century invention where digital record keeping  can keep original blocks secure from internal and external (bilo)malware and evolve complexity that is not adversarial to the earlier blocks.  Unlike manmade blockchain of Bitcoin, genomic blockchain operates on self-referential information processing.  This can be found in 2022 complexification of eukaryote paper of mine  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8lskHcsT$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://doi.org/10.1016/j.biosystems.2022.104718__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCcXSWFQ1$> ...

All best regards

Sheri

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> On Behalf Of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2024 7:48 AM
To: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

CAUTION: This email originated from outside our organisation. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognise the sender and know the content is safe. If you are not sure it is safe, please contact the IT Helpdesk.

Dear Peter and All,

I want to comment on the “revision of the theory of evolution”.

If you want details, let me know and I will send you a five-page file.

The “revision” of the theory of evolution” sounds problematic, but it is the natural development of the theory. That is happening in all sciences all the time, and recently we have witnessed very important developments in the theory of evolution that I am convinced you will be able to explain in terms of cybernetics and feedback mechanisms. The inclusion of principles from complexity science and cybernetics supports the notion that evolutionary processes are more adaptable and responsive than Darwin’s original model, emphasizing interdependent feedback mechanisms.

These advancements provide a broader, more integrative view of evolution, suggesting that the traditional model of random mutation and selection is only part of the story.

What is typically considered the “theory of evolution” today is “Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis” which is also a “revision” of the original Darwin’s theory that added genes as a fundamental explanation mechanism.

Recent developments in the theory of evolution, particularly those proposed by scientists like Denis Noble, Eva Jablonka, and others are reshaping how we understand evolutionary processes beyond the classical framework of Modern (neo-Darwinian) synthesis.

Here are some key recent advancements

Denis Noble and the "Extended Evolutionary Synthesis" (EES)

Rethinking the Central Dogma: Noble, a prominent physiologist, challenges the idea of the central dogma of molecular biology, which states that information flows only from DNA to RNA to protein. He suggests that biological processes are more interactive and interconnected, with feedback mechanisms that can allow information to flow in reverse and across different parts of a system.

Multi-level Selection and Interconnected Systems: Noble’s research emphasizes that evolutionary change isn’t only driven by gene-level mutations but also by the organism’s interactions at multiple biological levels. This perspective argues that genes, cells, tissues, and organs can all influence evolutionary outcomes, challenging the reductionist view that genes alone determine phenotypes.

Evolutionary Processes Beyond Genes

Epigenetics and Plasticity: The EES incorporates epigenetics—heritable changes in gene expression not driven by DNA sequence changes—as a significant factor. This flexibility allows organisms to respond more rapidly to environmental changes, which may also be passed on to offspring under certain conditions.

Niche Construction: Another central concept of EES is niche construction, which is the process by which organisms actively shape their environments, which in turn influences their own evolution. For example, beavers create dams that transform local ecosystems, affecting not only their survival but also that of other species.

Emergent Behaviors and Self-Organization

Biological Complexity and Adaptation: Agent-based approaches demonstrate how self-organized behaviors, which emerge from simple rules at the individual level, can lead to complex adaptation strategies. These emergent patterns are not always predictable from the initial conditions and suggest that evolution may have more directionality than previously thought.

Evolution as a Systemic Process: Instead of viewing evolution as a linear, gene-centered process, newer models support the idea of evolution as a systemic process involving feedback loops and interactions across many levels of biological organization.

Interdisciplinary Approaches in Evolutionary Theory

Fields like systems biology and ecology are increasingly intersecting with evolutionary biology, highlighting that organisms and their environments evolve together in a dynamic feedback loop.

Darwin's agential materials, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37156924/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8prinlVf$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2f37156924*2f&c=E,1,_5EkdnmYC7CYss96onPyTcRuIp4UjwaT12Tyd-C6q8pLL5x9mEBdNM__jMujN8CEyYcgMvPu9--_lPjOLmAnzvl03vWrRX10QRRZSeRS-XgMRg,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCUsokdQo$>

The concept of an “agent approach” in evolutionary biology, where individual cells exhibit goal-directed behaviors or "agency," represents an intriguing shift in understanding living systems. This perspective, advanced Michael Levin and Denis Noble, proposes that cells and other biological units are not passive, deterministic entities but rather active participants with their own forms of "goals" and responsive behaviors. Here’s a look at the agent-based approach with this view of cellular agency.

All the best,

Gordana

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>>
Date: Tuesday, 29 October 2024 at 03:25
To: "joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>>, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com<mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Alex, Joe, Mark , and All:

I find the appearance of remarkable concepts in our discussion very challenging: perennial philosophy, revision of the theory of evolution, and postmodern French philosophy.

I am digesting your thoughts, and hope to send a more substantial post about 18 hours later.

Kind regards,

Peter

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8kg3j9pU$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,bz0FfE_9Ks00ng5llmcu6Y25y6S7P4sC0OrOYmZQM5UWQI5N99zuXQxwt9A9L4gv3v6R1AExli8BKikW_71JJsMMRngt_GhRIU8Z50Pzk7Ue&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCWNAwDTf$>

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8kjgvSEp$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V9pGWVnrGix8iYOTIEtL1iJbcL5my7XkJK-TOHuDN4ah3gtOBc-Na4v5AXVKEhgYcA6_avZLWIX1y7Ijlr1U2T3Z$>

________________________________

From: joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>>
Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2024 6:16 AM
To: Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com<mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>>
Cc: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Mark and Peter,

Your last two notes taken together, seem to me to offer a remarkable basis for further discussion. Both modify "circularity" in such a way (sic!) that there is just enough left of the simplistic notion of circle while focussing non-circular dynamics.

The French philosopher Jean Baudrillard (1929 - 2007) suggested two antagonistic forms in reality in a 2004 book (my translation):

Integral Reality: the irreversible movement of the totality of the world.

Dual Form: the internal reversibility of the irreversible movement of the Real.

To avoid having to apply the overly semantic term of "contradictory" to these double, better recursive, movements, one may handle both by reference to the change of parts from actual to potential, and vice versa.

A further advance been made by the contemporary French philosopher Augustin Berque. He proposes complementing transduction by the more complex term trajection which takes into account the logical implications of our own existence, Links are thus possible to logics "of the middle" like those of the Orient.

Best,

Joseph

Le 27.10.2024 00:14 CEST, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com<mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>> a écrit :

Dear Alex and Peter

Perrenialism is very close to the biological theory articulated here:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5037349/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8gt0WVpZ$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fpmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov*2farticles*2fPMC5037349*2f&c=E,1,N5VX3UCXn_QhFPtHJD3YaSm8xlCbXYiyVZMd9KMv43SUj9oNPVYuaJSE-BPXf0h12EjnUbT_jn1hwjK36LgSlthOe1dzUZvtlTXGwxIwv0rFYtJKFrQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSUl!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCSEJil8T$>

Alex, this connection leapt out at me after reading your comment!

It makes me wonder whether Darwinism haunts cybernetics. The view in the Torday/Miller paper suggests that the Darwinian paradigm of selection among phenotypes is incorrect, where instead phenotypes are agents of epigenetic inheritance in service to cellular internal selection, with the "perennial" zygote as the focus, not the phenotype.

While there is an increasing body of empirical evidence to support a cell-based view of evolution (currently argued by Denis Noble, Philip Ball, as well as Torday and colleagues), maybe the important question is to ask what this might mean for the cybernetic thinking that Peter is discussing.

A few points strike me as interesting:

1. Circularity is a much better term than feedback, because it captures a deeper process of homeorhesis. But two questions concerning this are "what is stabilised?" and "who says?"

2. Transduction is a more precise name for the process implicated in "circularity". Behind that is conservation of energy on the one hand, and conversion of energy on the other. Cells and organisms are transducers, but the transduction process happens within them. It may operate with reference to the endogenised history of the cell in its own constitution.

3. Transduction must involve both selection and niche construction. The selection is both internal, referencing the evolutionary history of the cell, and external in maintaining equipoise with the environment. This selection process is multidimensional, featuring stochasticity (see Denis Noble), signals, constraints and coordination.

4. The transduction process relies on cells being observers of other cells and of themselves. It cannot work without self-reference. This is probably to restate the Conant-Ashby good regulator theorem, or Rosen's anticipatory systems, or Stafford Beer's "System 4" in the Viable System Model.

5. Systems people get tied up in knots when failing to apprehend the dimensional difference between stochasticity (noise), signals, constraints and coordination. We need better conceptual tools for dealing with this.

Best wishes

Mark

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, 09:39 Alex Hankey, <alexhankey at gmail.com<mailto:alexhankey at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Peter, and Fis Members,

About 1970, the Futurology Research Group under Dr. Willis Harman

at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) showed that the only system of thought apparently able to save mankind from extinction was the Perennial Philosophy.

Developments and events over the past half century, such as the Enron crisis, Bankruptcies of banks such as London's Barings Bank, caused by unauthorised investments by senior employees, or the climate crisis and deforestation of the Amazon, driven by corporate greed etc, suggest that this is true.

I live in India, the only country that subscribes to the Perennial Philosophy as the foundation of its 5 main religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism, where I conduct research on the relationship between Science and Spirituality. I therefore feel that I can state with some authority that, by and large, India sets an example in a number of areas, which are consistent with the conclusions of Harman's futurology work at SRI.

Looking at the violence being generated on different levels in North America, in the Middle East, in Russia, and by the Chinese Communist Party and its minions, we can see many threats to our future, some of which are ongoing, and others that promise to emerge before the end of the present decade.

The Perennial Philosophy, as described in Aldous Huxley's book of that name, is embodied in the word's of Swami Vivekananda, one of India's greatest spiritual leaders in the late 19th century. Vivekananda stated, 'Man is born to become Divine'. He did not mean in the present life-time, but rather by gaining greater and greater experience of Life through the cycles of death and rebirth, each human soul holds the potential to make the transition from being bound by his/her thoughts, words and actions, to a level where by serving Divine levels, and acting in accordance with instructions received from the Divine, he / she rises to be on a level on a par with the Divine.

Several of India's greatest spiritual teachers today exemplify that transition.

By bringing their work to humanity as a whole, it may be possible to prevent our destruction, and enter a time of endless prosperity.

But only by subscribing to the universal values of Truth, Goodness and Beauty (violently rejected by the CCP) can we hope for this to happen.

All best wishes,

Sincerely,

Alex Hankey

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 at 05:01, Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>> wrote:

Dear FISer:

Personal Intro:

I am happily back in this community: I attended the 1994, 1996, and 2005 conferences. In the last twenty years, I have been active in the neural network community (https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.inns.org/fellows-senior-members/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8iE4C7JO$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2fwww.inns.org*2ffellows-senior-members*2f&c=E,1,7FOnD4qB_uw6TuWoe9krf9vwGq-VMu-9IvPVcdetl6hyJyNI_oJzWyUwKGq3yFkB563b9dGFYFIHF4Us67ZezVyIYI_JG-uCak6A_g16ZqqGpCSzxSGmGduLOw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCZeWJKhM$>). In the previous five years, I published three books,

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8ojKQXWk$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Ranking-Unwritten-Rules-Social-Game/dp/0190935464/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFP9sLo6U$> ,

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8o6OERag$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>

The third is in press:

Feedback: How to Destroy or Save the World

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/9783031624384__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8qM4BE6t$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Repair-Improve-Objects-Ourselves-Society/dp/3030989070/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKuHtajO$>

(There is a 20% discount code at checkout on link.springer.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/link.springer.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Szk4lYPkGi5BDvo8We0ODRu28kt6a19QJOVQUBkdaJRV_hLqwotelvKUE_hfvBDuedR8kcjhT7NR1WBbv80w-Q$>:

I9rXjXjXbr7UGE / Valid Oct 10, 2024 – Nov 7, 2024). The Foreword was written by Michael Arbib.

I hope you don't mind if I hope to have a lively discussion about both feedback control and its potential role in answering the question:

Will humanity survive, and will our grandchildren live in prosperity? Or should we worry about the possibility of humanity's extinction?

Hypothesis: There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find a fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback. My attempt is not to deal with the impossible task, to prove (certainly not in the spirit of formal feedback control theory), but to support the belief. Chapters 1 - 5 are about the historical roles of feedback control in nature, technology, and society. Chapters 6 and 7 discuss the dichotomy of destroying or saving the world and the role of feedback control in avoiding huge catastrophes.

I suggest starting the discussion with a specific topic, but I am open to any comments, initial remarks, etc.

Chapter 1: Norbert Wiener's Dream: Technology, Life, and Society

This chapter overviews the birth of Cybernetics as a general theory of

goal-seeking systems. It introduces the notion of positive and negative feedback and gives credit to the General Systems Theory, which gave a framework for integrating the natural sciences with the social sciences. Modern computers made possible the simulation of social systems based on causal relationships among state variables, leading to various predicted scenarios about the world's future, some pessimistic.

One clear insight is that uncontrolled technological progress may negatively affect the environment, and we need to maintain a balance between economic growth and sustainability.

Chapter 2: Feedback Control in the History of Technology

This chapter gives an overview of the application of feedback control

throughout technological development. In technological systems, the goal is to ensure that some physical quantities, such as temperature, pressure, velocity, or altitude (and many others), show some desirable, prescribed behavior over time. Negative feedback stabilizes, while positive feedback amplifies even the initially minor differences.

Outriggers, mechanical clocks, steam engines, aviation technologies, and electronics are the main stages of progress toward the Space Travel Age. Feedback control systems played a crucial role in space exploration.

Chapter 3: Feedback Control in Biological Systems

Feedback control is a fundamental tool at every level of the biological hierarchy, from cellular to socio-ecological systems. It ensures homeostasis by adopting a general mechanism for restoring certain states after a small perturbation. Dynamical diseases occur due to the impairment of control systems. The theory of nonlinear dynamics offers a mathematical framework to analyze pathological temporal patterns. It aims to find control strategies to shift the physiological parameters back into normal ranges.

Chapter 4: Climate Changes, Wildfires, Tsunamis

This chapter starts with analyzing the role of positive and negative feedback loops in climate systems. Self-reinforcing positive feedback loops could result in an irreversible tipping point when climate spins out of control, with catastrophic results. Reducing the chance of climate catastrophe must become a central focus for civilization today, and appropriate feedback control strategies should be implemented.

Chapter 5: From Laissez-Faire to Greenspan: Feedback Control in Economic Systems

This chapter analyzes a fundamental question: Should economics be controlled or not? Is the “invisible hand” and the self-regulation of free market capitalism the best possible mechanism, or does the economy need governmental intervention? Minsky’s hypothesis suggests that stability implies instability. It is an observational fact that the economy shows a cyclic pattern: business cycles with different frequencies

are very general. Uncompensated positive feedback is found to be a general mechanism leading to extreme events, among other hyperinflation.

Chapter 6: From Natural Disasters to Social Riots

This chapter starts with analyzing whether we should worry about the

possibility of existential risk. In the subsection about the complex system approach to political instability, several issues, namely terrorism, social unrest, and migration, are discussed. Finally, a short system-theoretical analysis implies that democracies do better than autocracies.

Chapter 7: Epilogue: The Narrow Border Between Prosperity and Destruction

Do we live in the best possible world or the shadow of existential risk? The answer is BOTH! To avoid disasters, we need to apply the spirit of feedback control.

The ball is in your court,

Péter Érdi, October 20, 2024

________________________________

From: Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com<mailto:pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2024 12:08 PM
To: Peter Erdi <Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu<mailto:Peter.Erdi at kzoo.edu>>; 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear Peter,

Many thanks for your "pre-discussion" message.

My suggestion to channel such a broad approach is to divide it into two parts.

In the first one, the more scientific-technical part (what you mention about "the historical role of the concept of feedback".)

No doubt there are many points of interest there.

And later on, you could publish a second part about the related vision of the "big themes" and risks of our times.

I think in this way the discussion may flow with some easiness.

Otherwise we would be happy with whatever scheme you prefer.

All the best,

--Pedro

El 17/10/2024 a las 22:25, Peter Erdi escribió:

Dear Pedro and Dear FIS Colleagues:

Thank you for your introduction (I will make some slight corrections).

I will need several days to publish my formal introductory text.  I would like to discuss with you my thesis:

There is a narrow border between destruction and prosperity: to ensure reasonable growth but avoid existential risk, we must find the fine-tuned balance between positive and negative feedback.

I hope to discuss with you both the historical role of the concept of feedback and its possible contribution to destroying or saving the world. Apologies for the self-propaganda, I have a book in press https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8oZS8XT2$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/978303162438__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFN2pCEni$>4  will write a discount code, (apologies again).

Stay tuned,

Péter Érdi

Henry R. Luce Professor of Complex Systems Studies

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://blogs.kzoo.edu/perdi/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8kg3j9pU$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fblogs.kzoo.edu*2fperdi*2f&c=E,1,DXZxDUtw-vuIauMyxqq1G4QdM5IKx_WHJQK7kYtxUGgDE9KRjaIdG-4G0CXdcL1Ogi79GmYSABCYOreR5MR5UmqmpzGp4c__tnNT_bsMF5o8KvRrHTuQ&typo=1&ancr_add=1__;JSUlJSU!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WTpz_ki7hH5YTdgJn9UUu3qLam5dtQVEwhU41SIeHAToLt0PmQoWeRs5gJOrEKBXaQ17nnSDc2HBY8mvCbiDEkbO$>

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8kjgvSEp$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/channel/UCI5wPgp7iWiUPwbXdRA-9VQ__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFKttEg2g$>

 Kalamazoo College<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kzoo.edu/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Riy2Qkh0PimXlC7qOO0L0WhMXLRyScHp5jEvb9tSlHYDn5aLZUp0aA2WOHhM9mRN-R0qECHF-ReNWlzIFLJkHx4Q$>

________________________________

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com><mailto:pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2024 9:58 AM
To: 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: [Fis] New Discussion Session--Complexity & feedback

Dear FIS Colleagues,

We may start a new discussion session during next days.

Title:

Complexity and feedback: in nature, technology, and society

Presenter:

Peter Érdi
Henry R. Luce Professor
University of Kalamazoo (MI)

Greetings to all,

--Pedro
--------------------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
FIS Coordination
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Libre de virus.https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8ligNlS1$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!TM06qZ3D-mizico54YZw0l02tThdpy8xhdwd-35rmpmp5LM3hVvhPm6QcyJkzk8-r75hzcUI7pAEoVj7FK3iHhgQVZWt$>

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--

Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) Professor Emeritus of Biology,

MIT World Peace University,

124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038

Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195

Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789

WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India

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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

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Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
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--
Dr. Mark William Johnson
Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
University of Manchester

Department of Science Education
University of Copenhagen

Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
University of Liverpool
Phone: 07786 064505
Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com<mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!WhuRCf4YCil5X-esNuzKoaUoDP7Cw6Tsfpply4QnrzZG1V6eQ0FXI38rIf-6Ns9lhVsmQ4CHfBWWPcze8oQ4OYlg$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!URFV9khS44ITjIXltk8cDIk0LIS3euhXR4PrH7HZHTlukEZXKGStaHartpCsSghtMn4bQphN3qzqGLghUbaaYrk$>

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INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es
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