[Fis] Kate-Emotions and the Social Self, QM and generalizing entanglement to social intentions
Eric Werner
eric.werner at oarf.org
Thu May 16 11:58:17 CEST 2024
Dear Kate and All,
Big heading too much to say, not enough time or space to put this in an
email. So some short points:
1. Emotions occur in the context of a social-physical space of
possibilities. The emotions cover this space evaluating it in multiple
dimensions.
2. The social space includes the intentional states of the agents
interacting in that space.
3. There is an intimate relationship between information, intention,
and ability underlying the emotional space or capacity. They form a
complex multidimensional system that cannot be easily reduced without
loss of the overall architecture. And loss of understanding of how it
all fits together.
4. The social mind has representations of this structure to be able to
act in its social-physical world.
5. Kate opens a door that allows us to look at this complex
social-mental entangled system.
6. When say entangle I mean something analogous but not identical to QM.
It is a hyper-space of entangled strategies that underlie the
intentional-evaluative states of agents acting in the social space.
7. There is certainly are logics involved: The logic of can, the logic
of cooperative ability, the logic of intentions. These are
time-dependent logics. But these logics need to interact in the
reasoning social minds.
8. Is there a logic of emotions? If so it probably goes beyond a binary
or ternary or even a multi-valued ones.
My warm greetings to all you brilliant people.
We are all experts with varying degrees of intersections and
commonalities. With a lot of patience we may make some significant
discoveries on the nature of the social mind.
-Eric Werner
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ericwerner.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V3-WO1O6KEDVkbrKGt9hzfSQjRJ0NgIZDSnm72sTVup_AZig3F0V-80ZngaOi1tyGZkQEKkOhEbf-6hpnYWNXec$ -if you want to see some relevant articles to my
way of looking at this complex topic.
On 5/13/24 10:37 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
> Dear Lou and All,
>
> Basarab Nicolescu (1942 - ), friend and continuator of Stéphane
> Lupasco, deserves the historical credit for showing that the "logic of
> the included middle" of the latter can be seen as a superposition of
> physical states in the macroscopic domain.
>
> The "middle" in question is "half-way" between the actualization
> (presence) and potentialization (absence) of real contradictorial
> physical phenomena, such as emotions, with the caveat that the
> absolute ideal limits (0 and 1) of either are not attained.
>
> In my reformulation of this logic as "Logic in Reality", I have
> suggested that this concept applies in principle to complex phenomena.
> such as information, processes, or other wider contexts in Lou's term.
> An example of one such context would be useful to help focus this part
> of the debate.
>
> Unfortunately, the principle is not applied in practice, with the
> result that complex changing phenomena are usually described in the
> static terms of standard, value-free logic. Partial exceptions can be
> found in the work of Aerts and Khrennikov, but their real-world
> applications are again too limited (constructed).
>
> I would greatly value Kate's view as to whether she sees the
> components of emotion as following something like the laws of the
> "spaces" that Lou describes here, and to which my logic gives a
> possible physical interpretation.
>
> Thank you and best wishes,
> Joseph
>
> ----Message d'origine----
> De : loukau at gmail.com
> Date : 13/05/2024 - 09:53 (E)
> À : joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
> Cc : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com, fis at listas.unizar.es,
> alexhankey at gmail.com
> Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
>
> Indeed one can formulate “quantum logic” without quantum theory.
> One way is to incorporate the notion of superposition in the logic
> so that A v B is a superposition of states from A and from B.
> This can be axiomatized or one can use models such as vector
> spaces or lattices that exhibit the appropriate properties.
> For example, let V be a vector space over a field F with an inner
> product structure <a|b> for vectors a and b in V.
> Consider the collection L of subspaces of V.
> If A and B are subspaces of V, define ~A to be the orthogonal
> complement of A with respect to the inner product on V.
> Let A v B denote the subspace spanned by A and B.
> Let A ^ B denote the intersection of the subspaces A and B.
> Thus L is closed under v and ^ and ~.
> You can then verify that
> A v ~A = V
> A ^ ~A = 0 (the 0 subspace)
> ~ ~A = A
> The distributive law does not hold.
> Such a structure gives a quantum physical logic when F is the
> complex numbers, but can be used as a non-distributive logic in
> wider contexts.
> The same is the case for various lattice models.
>
>> On May 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
>>
>> Dear Mark, Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or
>> quantum kind of logic,
>>
>> I follow your thought and insights, but your use of the term
>> "quantum" is superfetatory. What I think you are looking for is a
>> logic whose terms, like those of quantum logic, do not commute or
>> distribute.
>>
>> What is true of the quantum domain is true analytically -
>> particle-wave duality, /etc. /What is true of the thermodynamic
>> domain - actuality moving to potentiality and /v.v. /is true
>> synthetically. Its logic is a dynamic logic of processes, not
>> quanta, and the terms of such a dynamic process logic can be
>> said to "breathe", accordingly.
>>
>> Best,
>> Joseph
>>
>> ----Message d'origine----
>> De : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com
>> Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E)
>> À : johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
>> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es, alexhankey at gmail.com
>> Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
>>
>> Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the echo of
>> Katherine’s topic.
>>
>> With breathing the subject becomes much more interesting
>> indeed. Particularly if we want to be in control of the lower
>> self feelings. The quantum kind of logic might make sense in
>> rationalizing the gain and spending of energy to perform
>> certain tasks.
>>
>> Alex, can you help with some good references for laymen
>> pranayama crash courses?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>>> On May 12, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson <
>>> johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Alex and Lou,
>>>
>>> This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you.
>>>
>>> Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it
>>> possible to design a system that 'breathes'?"
>>>
>>> Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does
>>> music).
>>>
>>> I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a
>>> quantum logic of breathing - something which is homologous
>>> to the function of the autonomic nervous system?
>>>
>>> One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets
>>> lost in discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and
>>> feel) together, and not alone.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, <
>>> loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Alex,
>>> I agree with you. It is possible to design structures
>>> supported by digital systems that have their structure
>>> maintained by response to perturbations.
>>> There are very elementary cellular automata that are
>>> like that.
>>> Then we might have things like large language models
>>> that simulate biological systems with instability
>>> correction that verges on “experience” and “emotions”.
>>> Such systems could report on their own internal states,
>>> as we do. But present systems are not founded in this way.
>>> Best,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>> On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey <
>>>> alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> RE:
>>>> 1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion
>>>> suggests that the dual “purposes” of self-preservation
>>>> and adaptive self-development (both mediated by
>>>> Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted
>>>> in /ancient information signaling and memory systems/.
>>>> 2. Is any subjectivity involved in information
>>>> processing? At what point is it purely mechanical?
>>>> 3. And once again, where does the /semantic value/
>>>> enter the picture? Not-self pathogens? Too hot, too cold?
>>>>
>>>> None of these questions are dealt with in terms of
>>>> digital information in organisms of any kind. Organisms
>>>> treat them in terms of 'Experience Information', which
>>>> is entirely different, being based on naturally
>>>> occurring Instabilities in organism response systems,
>>>> which cannot support Digital Information (for obvious
>>>> reasons), and which are present to enable the organism
>>>> to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon
>>>> Causa) Professor Emeritus of Biology,
>>>> MIT World Peace University,
>>>> 124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
>>>> Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
>>>> Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
>>>> WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
>>>> _________________________
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--
/Dr. Eric Werner
Oxford Advanced Research Foundation
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://oarf.org__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V3-WO1O6KEDVkbrKGt9hzfSQjRJ0NgIZDSnm72sTVup_AZig3F0V-80ZngaOi1tyGZkQEKkOhEbf-6hpkceYUac$
/
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