[Fis] Fwd: Re: Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Mon May 13 10:37:29 CEST 2024
Dear Lou and All,
Basarab Nicolescu (1942 - ), friend and continuator of Stéphane Lupasco, deserves the historical credit for showing that the "logic of the included middle" of the latter can be seen as a superposition of physical states in the macroscopic domain.
The "middle" in question is "half-way" between the actualization (presence) and potentialization (absence) of real contradictorial physical phenomena, such as emotions, with the caveat that the absolute ideal limits (0 and 1) of either are not attained.
In my reformulation of this logic as "Logic in Reality", I have suggested that this concept applies in principle to complex phenomena. such as information, processes, or other wider contexts in Lou's term. An example of one such context would be useful to help focus this part of the debate.
Unfortunately, the principle is not applied in practice, with the result that complex changing phenomena are usually described in the static terms of standard, value-free logic. Partial exceptions can be found in the work of Aerts and Khrennikov, but their real-world applications are again too limited (constructed).
I would greatly value Kate's view as to whether she sees the components of emotion as following something like the laws of the "spaces" that Lou describes here, and to which my logic gives a possible physical interpretation.
Thank you and best wishes,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : loukau at gmail.com
Date : 13/05/2024 - 09:53 (E)
À : joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Cc : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com, fis at listas.unizar.es, alexhankey at gmail.com
Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
Indeed one can formulate “quantum logic” without quantum theory.
One way is to incorporate the notion of superposition in the logic so that A v B is a superposition of states from A and from B.
This can be axiomatized or one can use models such as vector spaces or lattices that exhibit the appropriate properties.
For example, let V be a vector space over a field F with an inner product structure <a|b> for vectors a and b in V.
Consider the collection L of subspaces of V.
If A and B are subspaces of V, define ~A to be the orthogonal complement of A with respect to the inner product on V.
Let A v B denote the subspace spanned by A and B.
Let A ^ B denote the intersection of the subspaces A and B.
Thus L is closed under v and ^ and ~.
You can then verify that
A v ~A = V
A ^ ~A = 0 (the 0 subspace)
~ ~A = A
The distributive law does not hold.
Such a structure gives a quantum physical logic when F is the complex numbers, but can be used as a non-distributive logic in wider contexts.
The same is the case for various lattice models.
On May 12, 2024, at 10:13 AM,
joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
Dear Mark, Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or quantum kind of logic,
I follow your thought and insights, but your use of the term "quantum" is superfetatory. What I think you are looking for is a logic whose terms, like those of quantum logic, do not commute or distribute.
What is true of the quantum domain is true analytically - particle-wave duality, etc. What is true of the thermodynamic domain - actuality moving to potentiality and v.v. is true synthetically. Its logic is a dynamic logic of processes, not quanta, and
the terms of such a dynamic process logic can be said to "breathe", accordingly.
Best,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De :
plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com
Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E)
À :
johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Cc :
fis at listas.unizar.es,
alexhankey at gmail.com
Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the echo of Katherine’s topic.
With breathing the subject becomes much more interesting indeed. Particularly if we want to be in control of the lower self feelings. The quantum kind of logic might make sense in rationalizing the gain and spending of energy to perform certain tasks.
Alex, can you help with some good references for laymen pranayama crash courses?
Best,
Plamen
On May 12, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson <
johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Alex and Lou,
This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you.
Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it possible to design a system that 'breathes'?"
Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does music).
I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a quantum logic of breathing - something which is homologous to the function of the autonomic nervous system?
One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets lost in discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and feel) together, and not alone.
Best wishes
Mark
On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, <
loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Alex,
I agree with you. It is possible to design structures supported by digital systems that have their structure maintained by response to perturbations.
There are very elementary cellular automata that are like that.
Then we might have things like large language models that simulate biological systems with instability correction that verges on “experience” and “emotions”.
Such systems could report on their own internal states, as we do. But present systems are not founded in this way.
Best,
Lou
On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey <
alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
RE:
1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion suggests that the dual “purposes” of self-preservation and adaptive self-development (both mediated by Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted in
ancient information signaling and memory systems.
2. Is any subjectivity involved in information processing? At what point is it purely mechanical?
3. And once again, where does the
semantic value enter the picture? Not-self pathogens? Too hot, too cold?
None of these questions are dealt with in terms of digital information in organisms of any kind. Organisms treat them in terms of 'Experience Information', which is entirely different, being based on naturally occurring Instabilities in organism response systems, which cannot support Digital Information (for obvious reasons), and which are present to enable the organism to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology.
--
Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD
(M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa)
Professor Emeritus of Biology,
MIT World Peace University,
124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
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