[Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil

Mon May 13 00:31:50 CEST 2024

Dear Mark, Joe, Lou, Alex and All,

On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:22 PM Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Joe, Alex, Lou, Plamen,
>
> I think non-commutativity has to be a fundamental property of a logic of
> breathing.
>

Since Alain Connes and Alex Grothedieck, I am also inclined to think so.

To Joe: as for the quantum aspect of breathing, I was thinking in terms of
specific rationalized *discrete* portioning of energy gain/accumulation and
dissemination known from Planck's black body problem and required for
*continuous
*physiological "flow" processes like running, swimming, deep diving, etc.
since Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It was not my intention to relate this to
superposition, entanglement or other particle QM phenomena. Almost all
breathing techniques from Yoga Pranayama and Zen meditation to modern times
performance training (Wim Hof, Buteyko) are based on stringent periods for
breathing in, out and keeping breath to accumulate energy in *quanta* with
different physiological outcomes.
These are of course processes and could be modelled with process logic, but
the devil hides in the details which are of empirical nature

It is necessary for providing the organic broken symmetry of living things
> - hard to imagine anything commutative that could "live" (see for example, Nature’s
> Code | AIP Conference Proceedings | AIP Publishing
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/acp/article-abstract/1051/1/117/845700/Nature-s-Code?redirectedFrom=PDF__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wo04bod0nSR5P6b5D1_toPx4qGblvHxWJVabX9B3AHyP7hC_4oRkS3gWSJWjE5u86I_YPFPuk3VjkFcO9KF68ScEIQ28$ >).
> I agree that the word "quantum" has become unhelpful. The issue is the
> mathematics which helps us to see the logic of quantum mechanical phenomena
> - i.e. geometric algebra (Hestenes, Rowlands, Kauffman). I'm not sure about
> distributivity - GA is distributive... can you explain?
>

Hestenes is good at explaining physics and engineering. but there is still
more required for coming closer to modeling life.
Non-commutativity is a good starting point, I think.

I've been thinking a lot about Gordon Pask recently, and particularly the
> geometric diagrams he produced at the end of his "Interaction of Actors
> theory" which he wrote with Gerard de Zeeuw. I recently wrote to Gerard to
> ask what he remembered about this work - and particularly the oblique
> reference Pask made to Hamilton and Clifford at the end. He replied with a
> fascinating account of their discussions about order, but not about
> geometric algebra.
>
> Of course, Pask was wanting to account for conversation and concepts, but
> breathing must have entered his thinking.
>

That's good! All these works provide a good base, but there is still more
to demand.

>
> I want to suggest that the breathing is in these diagrams in the space
> around the "carapace". Of course, it's a process featuring vectors (the
> blank T lines), and bivectors (the rotating carapace/shell constraining the
> lines), and (perhaps) trivector/pseudoscalars in the orthogonal force
> exerted on other processes - essentially a "relation". What's missing from
> Pask is a scalar.
>

I am afraid that all these Grassmann style technicalities are insufficient
to grasp the essence of breathing as multifaceted phenomenon.

>
> What if the scalar is "noise"? - disturbance to the vectors, the shell
> constraining the vectors, and the relations between systems. Breathing then
> could be the result of this disturbance - a kind of resonance in the whole
> system with the universe, which maintains equipoise while also contributing
> to the noise of the environment as a result of breathing.
>

Resonance as quality of breathing brings it closer to M/string theory
rather than vector analysis and GA which are typical for Einstein's models
of the universe.

> There is a positional shift in this view in that it suggests that we don't
> so much breathe to live, but live to breathe. Our breathing performs a
> fundamental systemic function in the wider system.
>
>
It is a multilateral function, like most other functions of the other
organs.
The mere fact that it is usually autonomous, but can be also set
under complete control of the individual means that the outcomes of
exercising can be of fundamental nature: from leveraging an athlete's
physical performance to extension of consciousness.

Sorry if this sounds a bit vague - but this has been on my mind.
>

It is good, Mark. I made my note and hope that the others did too.

All the best.

Plamen

> Best wishes,
>
> Mark
>
> On Sun, 12 May 2024 at 16:13, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mark, Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or quantum
>> kind of logic,
>>
>> I follow your thought and insights, but your use of the term "quantum" is
>> superfetatory. What I think you are looking for is a logic whose terms,
>> like those of quantum logic, do not commute or distribute.
>>
>> What is true of the quantum domain is true analytically - particle-wave
>> duality, *etc. *What is true of the thermodynamic domain - actuality
>> moving to potentiality and *v.v. *is true synthetically. Its logic is a
>> dynamic logic of processes, not quanta, and the terms of such a dynamic
>> process logic can be said to "breathe", accordingly.
>>
>> Best,
>> Joseph
>>
>> ----Message d'origine----
>> De : plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com
>> Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E)
>> À : johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
>> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es, alexhankey at gmail.com
>> Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil
>>
>> Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the echo of Katherine’s topic.
>>
>> With breathing the subject becomes much more interesting indeed.
>> Particularly if we want to be in control of the lower self feelings. The
>> quantum kind of logic might make sense in rationalizing the gain and
>> spending of energy to perform certain tasks.
>>
>> Alex, can you help with some good references for laymen pranayama crash
>> courses?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>> On May 12, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Dear Alex and Lou,
>>
>> This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you.
>>
>> Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it possible to
>> design a system that 'breathes'?"
>>
>> Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does music).
>>
>> I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a quantum logic of
>> breathing - something which is homologous to the function of the autonomic
>> nervous system?
>>
>> One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets lost in
>> discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and feel) together, and not
>> alone.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, < loukau at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Alex,
>>> I agree with you. It is possible to design structures supported by
>>> digital systems that have their structure maintained by response to
>>> perturbations.
>>> There are very elementary cellular automata that are like that.
>>> Then we might have things like large language models that simulate
>>> biological systems with instability correction that verges on “experience”
>>> and “emotions”.
>>> Such systems could report on their own internal states, as we do. But
>>> present systems are not founded in this way.
>>> Best,
>>> Lou
>>>
>>> On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey < alexhankey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> RE:
>>> 1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion suggests that the
>>> dual  “purposes” of self-preservation and adaptive self-development (both
>>> mediated by Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted in *ancient
>>> information signaling and memory systems*.
>>> 2. Is any subjectivity involved in information processing? At what point
>>> is it purely mechanical?
>>> 3. And once again, where does the *semantic value* enter the picture?
>>> Not-self pathogens? Too hot, too cold?
>>>
>>> None of these questions are dealt with in terms of digital information
>>> in organisms of any kind. Organisms treat them in terms of 'Experience
>>> Information', which is entirely different, being based on naturally
>>> occurring Instabilities in organism response systems, which cannot support
>>> Digital Information (for obvious reasons), and which are present to enable
>>> the organism to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa)  Professor
>>> Emeritus of Biology,
>>> MIT World Peace University,
>>> 124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038
>>> Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195
>>> Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789
>>> WhatsApp: as for Mobile, India
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>
> --
> Dr. Mark William Johnson
> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
> University of Manchester
>
> Department of Science Education
> University of Copenhagen
>
> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
> University of Liverpool
> Phone: 07786 064505
> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
> Blog: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wo04bod0nSR5P6b5D1_toPx4qGblvHxWJVabX9B3AHyP7hC_4oRkS3gWSJWjE5u86I_YPFPuk3VjkFcO9KF68Q_3ekNl$ 
>
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