<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br clear="all"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)">Dear Mark, Joe, Lou, Alex and All,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 11:22 PM Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Joe, Alex, Lou, Plamen,<div><br></div><div>I think non-commutativity has to be a fundamental property of a logic of breathing. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Since Alain Connes and Alex Grothedieck, I am also inclined to think so.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">To Joe: as for the quantum aspect of breathing, I was thinking in terms of specific rationalized <i>discrete</i> portioning of energy gain/accumulation and dissemination known from Planck's black body problem and required for <i>continuous </i>physiological "flow" processes like running, swimming, deep diving, etc. since Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It was not my intention to relate this to superposition, entanglement or other particle QM phenomena. Almost all breathing techniques from Yoga Pranayama and Zen meditation to modern times performance training (Wim Hof, Buteyko) are based on stringent periods for breathing in, out and keeping breath to accumulate energy in <i>quanta</i> with different physiological outcomes. </div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">These are of course processes and could be modelled with process logic, but the devil hides in the details which are of empirical nature </div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>It is necessary for providing the organic broken symmetry of living things - hard to imagine anything commutative that could "live" (see for example, <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://pubs.aip.org/aip/acp/article-abstract/1051/1/117/845700/Nature-s-Code?redirectedFrom=PDF__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wo04bod0nSR5P6b5D1_toPx4qGblvHxWJVabX9B3AHyP7hC_4oRkS3gWSJWjE5u86I_YPFPuk3VjkFcO9KF68ScEIQ28$" target="_blank">Nature’s Code | AIP Conference Proceedings | AIP Publishing</a>). I agree that the word "quantum" has become unhelpful. The issue is the mathematics which helps us to see the logic of quantum mechanical phenomena - i.e. geometric algebra (Hestenes, Rowlands, Kauffman). I'm not sure about distributivity - GA is distributive... can you explain?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Hestenes is good at explaining physics and engineering. but there is still more required for coming closer to modeling life.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Non-commutativity is a good starting point, I think.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>I've been thinking a lot about Gordon Pask recently, and particularly the geometric diagrams he produced at the end of his "Interaction of Actors theory" which he wrote with Gerard de Zeeuw. I recently wrote to Gerard to ask what he remembered about this work - and particularly the oblique reference Pask made to Hamilton and Clifford at the end. He replied with a fascinating account of their discussions about order, but not about geometric algebra. </div><div><br></div><div>Of course, Pask was wanting to account for conversation and concepts, but breathing must have entered his thinking. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">That's good! All these works provide a good base, but there is still more to demand. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>I want to suggest that the breathing is in these diagrams in the space around the "carapace". Of course, it's a process featuring vectors (the blank T lines), and bivectors (the rotating carapace/shell constraining the lines), and (perhaps) trivector/pseudoscalars in the orthogonal force exerted on other processes - essentially a "relation". What's missing from Pask is a scalar. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">I am afraid that all these Grassmann style technicalities are insufficient to grasp the essence of breathing as multifaceted phenomenon.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>What if the scalar is "noise"? - disturbance to the vectors, the shell constraining the vectors, and the relations between systems. Breathing then could be the result of this disturbance - a kind of resonance in the whole system with the universe, which maintains equipoise while also contributing to the noise of the environment as a result of breathing. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Resonance as quality of breathing brings it closer to M/string theory rather than vector analysis and GA which are typical for Einstein's models of the universe.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>There is a positional shift in this view in that it suggests that we don't so much breathe to live, but live to breathe. Our breathing performs a fundamental systemic function in the wider system. </div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">It is a multilateral function, like most other functions of the other organs.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">The mere fact that it is usually autonomous, but can be also set under complete control of the individual means that the outcomes of exercising can be of fundamental nature: from leveraging an athlete's physical performance to extension of consciousness.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div>Sorry if this sounds a bit vague - but this has been on my mind.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">It is good, Mark. I made my note and hope that the others did too.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">All the best.</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default">Plamen</div><div style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(7,55,99)" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Mark</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 12 May 2024 at 16:13, <a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> <<a href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><font size="3">Dear Mark, Plamen and others who have referred to a quantum or quantum kind of logic,</font><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">I follow your thought and insights, but your use of the term "quantum" is superfetatory. What I think you are looking for is a logic whose terms, like those of quantum logic, do not commute or distribute. </font></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">What is true of the quantum domain is true analytically - particle-wave duality, <i>etc. </i>What is true of the thermodynamic domain - actuality moving to potentiality and <i>v.v. </i>is true synthetically. Its logic is a dynamic logic of processes, not quanta, and</font><span style="font-size:medium"> the terms of such a dynamic process logic can be said to "breathe", accordingly.</span></div><div><font size="3"><br></font></div><div><font size="3">Best,</font></div><div><font size="3">Joseph<br></font><div><br></div><div><blockquote style="margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px">----Message d'origine----<br>De : <a href="mailto:plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com" target="_blank">plamen.l.simeonov@gmail.com</a><br>Date : 12/05/2024 - 14:54 (E)<br>À : <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Cc : <a href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank">fis@listas.unizar.es</a>, <a href="mailto:alexhankey@gmail.com" target="_blank">alexhankey@gmail.com</a><br>Objet : Re: [Fis] Comments on Questions from Katherine Peil<br><br>Thank you all, for this exciting turn in the echo of Katherine’s topic.
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With breathing the subject becomes much more interesting indeed. Particularly if we want to be in control of the lower self feelings. The quantum kind of logic might make sense in rationalizing the gain and spending of energy to perform certain tasks.
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Alex, can you help with some good references for laymen pranayama crash courses?
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On May 12, 2024, at 11:08 AM, Mark Johnson <<a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Dear Alex and Lou,
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This seems to be much closer to the point - thank you.
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Lou - I wonder if your question is a way of asking "is it possible to design a system that 'breathes'?"
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Current AI systems clearly do not. Our emotions do (As does music).
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I'm intrigued by the possibility that there might be a quantum logic of breathing - something which is homologous to the function of the autonomic nervous system?
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One aspect to this which I think is important and which gets lost in discussion about emotions is that we breathe (and feel) together, and not alone.
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Mark
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On Sun, 12 May 2024, 08:43 Louis Kauffman, <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue">loukau@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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Dear Alex,
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I agree with you. It is possible to design structures supported by digital systems that have their structure maintained by response to perturbations.
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There are very elementary cellular automata that are like that.
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Then we might have things like large language models that simulate biological systems with instability correction that verges on “experience” and “emotions”.
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Such systems could report on their own internal states, as we do. But present systems are not founded in this way.
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Lou
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On May 12, 2024, at 2:03 AM, Alex Hankey <
<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:blue" rel="noreferrer">alexhankey@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
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RE:
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1. My take on the self-regulatory function emotion suggests that the dual “purposes” of self-preservation and adaptive self-development (both mediated by Negative ~ Positive categories of emotions) are rooted in
<i>ancient information signaling and memory systems</i>.
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2. Is any subjectivity involved in information processing? At what point is it purely mechanical?
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3. And once again, where does the
<i>semantic value</i> enter the picture? Not-self pathogens? Too hot, too cold?
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None of these questions are dealt with in terms of digital information in organisms of any kind. Organisms treat them in terms of 'Experience Information', which is entirely different, being based on naturally occurring Instabilities in organism response systems, which cannot support Digital Information (for obvious reasons), and which are present to enable the organism to satisfy the requirements of Fractal Physiology.
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<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span>
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<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse"><span style="font-family:"times new roman",serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148)"></span>Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD</span>
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</div><br></blockquote><br><p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Dr. Mark William Johnson<br><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Manchester</div><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Science Education</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Copenhagen</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">University of Liverpool</div>Phone: 07786 064505<br>Email: <a href="mailto:johnsonmwj1@gmail.com" target="_blank">johnsonmwj1@gmail.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Wo04bod0nSR5P6b5D1_toPx4qGblvHxWJVabX9B3AHyP7hC_4oRkS3gWSJWjE5u86I_YPFPuk3VjkFcO9KF68Q_3ekNl$" target="_blank">http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com</a></div></div>
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