[Fis] Concluding Comments?

[Karl Javorszky]

Very nice progress. We are discussing the inner structure of an edifice
called information.
All very well, but please align your plans to the fundaments of the
edifice. We need that what is being said, also in this current session, to
be congruent with the general logic which still rules supreme.
Whatever melody our deliberations during the past session have created in
our collective mind, it must be playable by the organ that a+b=c has
constructed. If the procedure of biology, natural and AI are rational, the
procedure must be expressible in a Wittgenstein-Shannon type language also.

Therefore, within the symbols set there must be something that allows the
construction of relations among distinct concepts. If biology is a periodic
process taking place on a closed collection of individual logical units,
then the interrelations are included as a part of the same package which
has delivered us the Sumerian units and all our knowledge since. It is a
property of the symbol set that it generates by its own diverseness those
patterns to which we point and invent a name for.
Learned Friends already discuss the relations among ideas, while the
mechanic's workshop generates first prototypes of ideas that describe
patterns. We can point to collections of numbers and say "these depict
facts" and concurrently to collections of numbers and say "these depict the
ideas that are referring to / included / consequence of / etc. of the same
facts". The rules of interrelations between facts, their ideas and
realizations yield the basic architecture of the edifice of information.
The rules of how numbers relate to each other describe the rules of how
things (in their manifold forms and properties, like space, mass, energy,
etc) relate to each other.

The grand idea is that the collection of all possibilities is a finite
number as long as the number of objects that interact is finite. In the
Grand Total the realized and the non-realized are the same sum. A statement
about the collection will discuss both what is the case and what can yet be
the case (in a closed, limited, periodic habitat). Using an etalon
collection, one can demonstrate that indeed there are two levels in the
discussion: the level of facts and the level of ideas.

There is a gearbox, translation mechanism which mediates the aspects
<should be - can be> the case, which is a complex interplay between cycles
and the bazaar, its consequences being felt both in the world of facts and
in that of ideas.

Hope that this offer of a numeric outline for a basic structure is found
practical for your investigations.


Am Fr., 8. März 2024 um 15:53 Uhr schrieb Dai Griffiths <
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com>:

> Interesting links, I hope I am not too late to respond.
> It seems to me that there is a big difference between things which are:
>
> a) unsurprising
>
>    - identifying a transform of a aural stimulus that has activated a
>    persons eardrum, where we can assume that the neural processes involved are
>    largely the same for all individuals.
>
> b) Could be feasible, but which depend on details of brain processes which
> I do not know, or which perhaps are as yet unknown.
>
>    - identifying a memory of an aural stimulus
>    - identifying a word just before it is vocalised (or which is
>    conciously thought without vocalisation).
>
> c) Doubtful
>
>    - Interpreting the thoughts of a person as they go about their living,
>    which might or might not lead to speech. My assumption is that the neuronal
>    structures involved are deeply contingent on the detail of the organisms'
>    prior interactions, and so cannot be mapped between organisms
>
> I may be wrong about (d), time will tell. But if I am right, then we
> should reserve judgment about the prospects for 'brain transparency', An
> encephalographic overseer might be able to see if their minion is on task,
> but perhaps not what they are thinking about.
>
> Best
> Dai
>
> On Thu, 7 Mar 2024 at 10:36, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <
> plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Well said. Thank you, Catlos.
>>
>> I have one last question:
>>
>> What do you and the FIS colleagues think of this kind of outlook for
>> evolutionary formali(n)sation?
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.mit.edu/2019/training-artificial-intelligence-brain-scan-0619__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UUhR4rpIsau0zJISEfhdL9MIreRK0bREFqKQpa0RttHLzYyCfVCA3fbU7M_g_qzTHS6aLOSC76cYIOo-qPaTOvrfE8I$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.mit.edu/2019/training-artificial-intelligence-brain-scan-0619__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtvCj4Rp$>
>>
>> 2.
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/01/1072471/brain-scans-can-translate-a-persons-thoughts-into-words/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UUhR4rpIsau0zJISEfhdL9MIreRK0bREFqKQpa0RttHLzYyCfVCA3fbU7M_g_qzTHS6aLOSC76cYIOo-qPaTyZ6wLQo$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/05/01/1072471/brain-scans-can-translate-a-persons-thoughts-into-words/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtEGJZZW$>
>>
>> 3.
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.weforum.org/videos/davos-am23-ready-for-brain-transparency-english/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UUhR4rpIsau0zJISEfhdL9MIreRK0bREFqKQpa0RttHLzYyCfVCA3fbU7M_g_qzTHS6aLOSC76cYIOo-qPaTlmlef9g$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.weforum.org/videos/davos-am23-ready-for-brain-transparency-english/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SsU3-gNIFwLZgKiiAaKmhhb1-cQGJaorxvmbNO3QLa-ar2RGlYGvCeFuJBLc7vMzwA0hIWAxk5GeRtvH74S8ZtSFL0yp$>
>>
>>
>> All the best!
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:06 PM Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Pedro and colleagues,
>>>
>>> Thank you very much for the lively discussions and commentaries. I have
>>> learned a lot.
>>>
>>> I would not say these are concluding comments, as all questions remain
>>> open, but perhaps "summarizing comments".
>>>
>>> I think that efforts to “fix” formal systems to go beyond or around
>>> their limits (*à la* Hilbert’s program) are doomed to fail. We still
>>> need to accept them or find a better way of dealing with them. Perhaps an
>>> alternative would be not to see them as something negative, but as
>>> something we can exploit/benefit from. I mean, just hypothetically imagine
>>> if mathematics was consistent, complete, and decidable. Yes, we would have
>>> absolute truths, we could have certainty. But would we have creativity?
>>> Innovation? Serendipity? In other words, we could eliminate many problems
>>> we suffer from, but perhaps we would have many more. Even worse, perhaps we
>>> would not even be here. For how could human culture evolve in a consistent,
>>> complete, and decidable world?
>>>
>>> Of course, this does not mean that we should abandon science or formal
>>> methods. But by acknowledging their limits, we should be able to use
>>> different narratives to explore beyond them.
>>>
>>> Best (albeit incomplete) wishes,
>>>
>>> Carlos
>>>
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