[Fis] Fwd: Re: Information, computation, and causality in living systems: Fis Digest, Vol 108, Issue 5 - the new transition in science

[Pedro C. Marijuán]

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-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
Asunto: 	Re: Information, computation, and causality in living systems: 
[Fis] Fis Digest, Vol 108, Issue 5 - Kierkegaard, responsible free will 
and the meaning of the new transition in science
Fecha: 	Thu, 18 Jan 2024 22:27:27 -0600
De: 	Louis Kauffman <loukau at gmail.com>
Para: 	Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com>
CC: 	Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at gmail.com>, Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic 
<gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdu.se>, Andrea Roli <andrea.roli at unibo.it>, 
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>, Eric Werner 
<eric.werner at oarf.org>, Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov 
<plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch 
<joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>, Krassimir Markov <itheaiss at gmail.com>, fis 
<fis at listas.unizar.es>



Dear Stu,
Can you comment directly on the following?

Regard DNA = <W|C> where this denotes the joining of the Watson (W) and 
Crick (C) strands.
The schema by which DNA replicates is that W and C separate (partially) 
by enzyme action and the environment in the cell supplies the 
complementary base pairs so that
<W|C> —> <W| Environment |C> —> <W|C> <W|C>
This happens in a very complex manner particularly since the two DNA’s 
are interwound and have to be separated by topoisomerase action in order 
for mitosis to even begin.

Nevertheless the key to this way of replication is that the DNA consists 
in complementary parts <W| and |C> EACH OF WHICH IS THE BLUEPRINT AND 
CONSTRUCTOR FOR ITS COMPLEMENTARY PAIR. Thus the DNA is a very special 
kind of vonNeumann building machine that contains its own blueprint for 
its own replication. It is not a universal vonNeumann machine. It is 
just the right kind of machine to work in the environment of a cell.

Of course, as if this were not fantastic enough, we know full well that 
the DNA does lots more than just replicate, and all that genetic 
information is being handled by
many more devices embodying molecular contiguity.
Best,
Lou

> On Jan 18, 2024, at 9:02 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stukauffman at gmail.com 
> <mailto:stukauffman at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi All, attached is a new arXiv link to Stuart Kauffman and Andrea 
> Roli: “Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the 
> evolving universe?”
> <IS 2 THE EMERGEGENCE OF LIFE ON ARXIV LINK.docx>
>   This version contains three tiny mistakes that do not matter and 
> should be fixed in a day or two.  Please see the odd part about the 
> von Neumann Universal Constructor and its reproduction NOT applying to 
> how cells reproduce. Something is weird about “information”.
>
> Best to All.
>> On Jan 18, 2024, at 8:33 AM, Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at gmail.com 
>> <mailto:cgershen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Stu,
>>
>>>
>>> Artificial Life has not yet achieve /open ended evolution/.
>>
>> This depends on how you define open-endedness. There have been a few 
>> workshops on OEE at ALife conferences, these two introductions might 
>> give a flavor of the field:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/25/1/1/2910/Open-Ended-Evolution-and-Open-Endedness-Editorial?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RcwgDlYI3N90B-R3aNHcimeehw70wbHt08u8XIViuOaueoixb6zeebOdS0Te7Sh3H55cLB2U5Pchr05ZO46Yn7yXtJdk$  
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/25/1/1/2910/Open-Ended-Evolution-and-Open-Endedness-Editorial?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIKNmow1mEBFRvhr4atGvmjx4yohpJ6mG1VNoD-XQmSf8p_4iFloujhL9gBmQCBqrhK302pr2mNIf3Uv$>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/25/2/93/2927/An-Overview-of-Open-Ended-Evolution-Editorial?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RcwgDlYI3N90B-R3aNHcimeehw70wbHt08u8XIViuOaueoixb6zeebOdS0Te7Sh3H55cLB2U5Pchr05ZO46YnyBKv-lR$  
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/25/2/93/2927/An-Overview-of-Open-Ended-Evolution-Editorial?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIKNmow1mEBFRvhr4atGvmjx4yohpJ6mG1VNoD-XQmSf8p_4iFloujhL9gBmQCBqrhK302pr2jrI_Ek5$>
>>
>> But related to this discussion, you might be interested in this paper 
>> from Santiago’s PhD (I was in his thesis committee):
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/24/1/56/2880/Undecidability-and-Irreducibility-Conditions-for?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!RcwgDlYI3N90B-R3aNHcimeehw70wbHt08u8XIViuOaueoixb6zeebOdS0Te7Sh3H55cLB2U5Pchr05ZO46Yn5IfxvWu$  
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article-abstract/24/1/56/2880/Undecidability-and-Irreducibility-Conditions-for?redirectedFrom=fulltext__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!XIKNmow1mEBFRvhr4atGvmjx4yohpJ6mG1VNoD-XQmSf8p_4iFloujhL9gBmQCBqrhK302pr2kvs3oNr$>
>> Basically, he proved that you need computational undecidability to 
>> have OEE. Still, they use an example (proposed by Chaitin) of a 
>> system that exhibits OEE.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Carlos
>>
>



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