[Fis] Fwd: Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information" Turtles

[Alex Hankey]

Dear Joseph,
Thank you very much for your email, and its analysis of my comments on the
role of critical instabilities in living organisms making life
non-computable.
I am not too sure about your use of the term 'logic', because although
digital information is meant to obey logic, and Ideas are meant to be used
in accordance with a mutually accepted system of logic, I do not know
whether systems of critical instabilities in and of themselves present a
specific kind of logic.
Maybe Lou could comment on this.
Best wishes to all,
Alex
P.S. As I vaguely recall, generalizations of Mathematical (Formal?) Systems
can be achieved under Topos Theory, with a specific Truth (and logic)
associated with each Topos.



On Sat, 17 Feb, 2024, 17:18 joe.brenner at bluewin.ch, <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
wrote:

> Dear Alex and Carlos,
>
> Carlos wrote:
> But maybe we just need two levels: one where rules don’t change, and
> another where we can allow rules and meaning to change. The thing is that
> the way in which rules and meaning change cannot change… but then if we add
> another layer… To avoid turtles all the way down, could we have layer A
> changing layer B and vice versa? A coevolution of formal systems?
>
>
> Between your last two last notes, I think we are coming very close to
> capturing the essential properties of information as instantiating change
> and non-change as non-digital information. The "logic" of information
> should allow, then, for both, together and not-together. Alex' formulation
> is important because it shows that although complex non-computatble
> information is distinct from digital information, it is not disjoint. There
> is a relation and an interaction to explore.
>
> The terms "co-evolution", "co-instantiation" or "co-awaiting (*co-attente*) are
> exactly the ones used by the contemporary Japanese philosopher Yamauchi
> Tokuryu whose work is now available  in French. Critics can no longer claim
> that the essential precepts of Eastern logic are not accessible.
> In my logic, one avoids the infinite regress by noting that in reality,
> for real situations, it does not exist. A regress stops after two, maximum
> three recursions when no further meaning is added.
>
> Further, there is simple way to avoid "turtles all the way across". If all
> complex phenomena share both digital and non-digital properties, to
> different extents at different times, we can have our cake and eat it. The
> same relation obtains between ontic and epistemic properties of
> information. No brutal, theoretical split here either.
>
> Thank you and best wishes,
> Joseph
>
>
> ----Message d'origine----
> De : alexhankey at gmail.com
> Date : 17/02/2024 - 07:15 (E)
> À : cgershen at gmail.com
> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es, 55mrcs at gmail.com, itheaiss at gmail.com
> Objet : Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"
>
> Dear Carlos,
> Life and consciousness can be expressed in terms of Ideas or 'Forms'
> as the traditional literature in both East and West calls them,
> (Plato's Forms, and Sanskrit Rupa). Those can be mathematically
> represented by the 'catastrophes' of Fields medallist Ren é Thom.
> But that kind of information, which occurs at critical instabilities
> is completely distinct from digital information. The term
> 'Experience Information' has been termed to describe it.
> It is easily shown to underlie the digital information in
> words and speech. The proof of this last statement is
> qualitative and easily understood, and can be shared
> on request.
> All best wishes,
> Alex (Hankey)
> P.S. Since the world, particularly that of living forms, is
> extensively populated by critical points / instabilities,
> the time evolution of the world cannot be fully described
> by digital information.
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 at 06:31, Carlos Gershenson < cgershen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Alex,
>>
>> BUT Life and Consciousness can never
>> be expressed 'in terms of information'.
>> At their heart lie the phenomena of
>> critical instabilities, the physics of
>> which make their digitisation impossible!
>>
>>
>> All of physics can be described as information, including life (and
>> perhaps consciousness, but I haven’t gone in this direction). Details at
>>
>> Gershenson, C. (2012). The world as evolving information. In A. Minai, D.
>> Braha, & Y. Bar-Yam (Eds.), Unifying themes in complex systems (pp.
>> 100–115, Vol. 7). Springer.  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0304__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R15zGSppoPOxy7i7dUL_5K_YNuFPxzBattUvL4mo35bsxGkIN3dKP_XH9ntCcp4oK1snKfnM0Rei7r3TbV6PyQ$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0304__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!S_LcHmQEkPsjF2HzACd06QlqMtsXlJVR8JssH8vOI7yjxkmodeTRGv5C32sydDc2jByoAjzf4r27RTS_3n_mpQ$>
>>
>>
>> And thanks to Gordana for the other examples.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Carlos
>>
>>
>
> --
> Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa)
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