[Fis] Fwd: Re: " express matter and energy in terms of information" Turtles

[joe.brenner at bluewin.ch]

Dear Alex and Carlos,
Carlos wrote:
But maybe we just need two levels: one where rules don’t change, and another where we can allow rules and meaning to change. The thing is that the way in which rules and meaning change cannot change… but then if we add another layer… To avoid turtles all the way down, could we have layer A changing layer B and vice versa? A coevolution of formal systems?
Between your last two last notes, I think we are coming very close to capturing the essential properties of information as instantiating change and non-change as non-digital information. The "logic" of information should allow, then, for both, together and not-together. Alex' formulation is important because it shows that although complex non-computatble information is distinct from digital information, it is not disjoint. There is a relation and an interaction to explore.
The terms "co-evolution", "co-instantiation" or "co-awaiting (co-attente) are exactly the ones used by the contemporary Japanese philosopher Yamauchi Tokuryu whose work is now available  in French. Critics can no longer claim that the essential precepts of Eastern logic are not accessible. 
In my logic, one avoids the infinite regress by noting that in reality, for real situations, it does not exist. A regress stops after two, maximum three recursions when no further meaning is added. 
Further, there is simple way to avoid "turtles all the way across". If all complex phenomena share both digital and non-digital properties, to different extents at different times, we can have our cake and eat it. The same relation obtains between ontic and epistemic properties of information. No brutal, theoretical split here either.
Thank you and best wishes,
Joseph
----Message d'origine----
De : alexhankey at gmail.com
Date : 17/02/2024 - 07:15 (E)
À : cgershen at gmail.com
Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es, 55mrcs at gmail.com, itheaiss at gmail.com
Objet : Re: [Fis] "express matter and energy in terms of information"
 
  Dear Carlos, 
  
 
 
  Life and consciousness can be expressed in terms of Ideas or 'Forms' 
  
 
 
  as the traditional literature in both East and West calls them, 
  
 
 
  (Plato's Forms, and Sanskrit Rupa). Those can be mathematically 
 
 
  represented by the 'catastrophes' of Fields medallist Ren
  é Thom. 
  
 
 
  But that kind of information, which occurs at critical instabilities 
  
 
 
  is completely distinct from digital information. The term 
  
 
 
  'Experience Information' has been termed to describe it. 
  
 
 
  It is easily shown to underlie the digital information in 
  
 
 
  words and speech. The proof of this last statement is 
  
 
 
  qualitative and easily understood, and can be shared 
  
 
 
  on request. 
  
 
 
  All best wishes, 
  
 
 
  Alex (Hankey) 
  
 
 
  P.S. Since the world, particularly that of living forms, is 
 
 
  extensively populated by critical points / instabilities, 
  
 
 
  the time evolution of the world cannot be fully described 
  
 
 
  by digital information. 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 at 06:31, Carlos Gershenson <
  cgershen at gmail.com> wrote:
  
 
 
  
   Dear Alex,
   
   
    
    
     
      BUT Life and Consciousness can never
     
     
      
       
        be expressed 'in terms of information'. 
        
       
       
        At their heart lie the phenomena of 
        
       
       
        critical instabilities, the physics of 
        
       
       
        which make their digitisation impossible! 
        
       
      
     
    
    
     
    
    
     All of physics can be described as information, including life (and perhaps consciousness, but I haven’t gone in this direction). Details at
    
    
     
    
    
     Gershenson, C. (2012). The world as evolving information. In A. Minai, D. Braha, & Y. Bar-Yam (Eds.), Unifying themes in complex systems (pp. 100–115, Vol. 7). Springer. 
     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0304__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!U9l_Dh8DKeXREwGs1g9eNcQQRUg1S7Cpww1fqpbCVPuVolXEZjE8a852faX6ufdidx4OoIcj_ATFAfel6nGmmAfNz4Y$ 
      
    
    
     
    
    
     And thanks to Gordana for the other examples.
    
    
     
    
    
     Best wishes,
    
   
   
    
     
      
       
        Carlos
       
     
    
   
   
  
 
-- 
 
  
   Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD
    (M.I.T.) DSc. (Hon Causa) 
  
  
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Teacher Yoga Pratyahara and True Dhyana Meditation (50 years)
  
  
   Professor Emeritus of Biology,
 MIT World Peace University, 
  
  
   124 Paud Road, Pune, MA 411038 
  
  
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