[Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation

[Gordana Dodig Crnkovic]

Dear Xueshan

Many have contributed to the development of computing that Mark Burgin envisaged.
But they do not share a common language.
We need a mechanism to bridge the gaps between different nomenclatures.

One person who has literally continued Mark Burgin's project is Rao Mikkilineni, https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/raomikkilineni/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V7OpDQzsHV4BNo9o49x59BEBXVJU3inru8iFpo9_HAfg7MmRPMAHRZM8rWIhitbuKrlA9T628LQ7Ohtx40usG74eAocRGMEm$ .

Best regards,
Gordana


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn>
Organisation: CHINA
Reply to: "yxs at pku.edu.cn" <yxs at pku.edu.cn>
Date: Saturday, 14 December 2024 at 13:17
To: FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation

Dear Gordana,
I fully support Pedro's position that the FIS forum no longer considers the definition of information an important topic for discussion. Similarly, I believe that to break the longstanding impasse in Fundamental Information Science concerning the definition of information is to stop discussing it for the next three years, including at FIS forum and International Conferences of IS4SI.
Do you remember our conversation a few years ago? You mentioned that before the IS4SI Gothenburg Conference was held, very few people had registered to attend the conference. It was the participation of two groups from China—one focusing on information philosophy and the other addressing various information issues—that made your conference possible. Today, at the biennial IS4SI International Conference, this situation remains unchanged.
We should consider what factors have led to this situation. At a time when nearly all disciplines are discussing information issues, what else can we—a group called "Fundamental Information Scientists"—do besides discussing information definitions? why is this the case? Why?
Fortunately, Krassimir is breaking this deadlock by beginning to focus on some new fundamental issues in information science.
Gordana, as someone familiar with both computer science and Mark Burgin's work, you may recall that Mark proposed three aspects of computer science in his 2005 article: Hardware, Software, and Infware. Nineteen years have passed, so why haven’t any computer scientists or information scientists conducted the research on his Infware? Is computer science still a representative field of information science? Can you provide an example and offer some valuable insights on this issue? If effective, it could become a significant achievement for our group.
Best wishes and weekend,
Xueshan

From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2024 6:13 PM
To: yxs at pku.edu.cn; FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Cc: José María Díaz-Nafría <jdian at unileon.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation

Addressing the Definition of Information in Fundamental Information Science

Dear Xueshan,

You say:
“Our current priority should be to address the longstanding impasse in Fundamental Information Science regarding the definition of information.”

I see a parallel with the ongoing work of Michael Levin, who aims to establish a state-of-the-art nomenclature across various fields. Here is a publication that addresses the current understanding of “diverse intelligences”:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666675824000961__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V7OpDQzsHV4BNo9o49x59BEBXVJU3inru8iFpo9_HAfg7MmRPMAHRZM8rWIhitbuKrlA9T628LQ7Ohtx40usG74eAjKCZBln$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666675824000961__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!R32-idIDyCab1UHHBWH9t_6mUlJxEJKkOOMzJ0JpJvMu9tvhdmouY7EmZwD6sPpluWztAC9FHxnK0f4DKn5vXj3mXPfiUHim$> Toward a nomenclature consensus for diverse intelligent systems: Call for collaboration

Recently, I participated in Michael’s initiative to explore current definitions of “life”.
Similar to “information,” the definitions of “life” are numerous and varied.

This approach carries an important lesson. It acknowledges the complexity of the phenomenon being defined, respects diverse perspectives, and presents them along with their mutual relationships. With the advent of new AI tools, it is now possible to visualize these relationships effectively. The article above highlights this potential of better understanding possible approaches to nomenclature.

The question of who could undertake similar regarding the definitions of “information” is undoubtedly of interest to our community. Marcus Abundis wrote on Wednesday, December 11, 2024, at 02:02:
“Wasn’t there a BITrum project that was started a while back with that same purpose? Is that project still alive?
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bitrumcontributions.wordpress.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V7OpDQzsHV4BNo9o49x59BEBXVJU3inru8iFpo9_HAfg7MmRPMAHRZM8rWIhitbuKrlA9T628LQ7Ohtx40usG74eArAiqTlM$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/bitrumcontributions.wordpress.com/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QTxdFX2iNuThLW4Htd5ZKXctq2ynG2VP3pFjNeGjE30J1NR-x1yUnpDoNgHu0jnDgFibRhqStai7GnFN$>”

We could ask José María (in CC) about the current status of that project.

I understand Pedro’s position that opening discussions on the definition of “information” on the FIS list should be avoided (the archives of FIS show how often this issue has resurfaced).
However, this remains an important topic for a separate initiative, such as BITrum.

With new AI tools and the recognition that no single definition can fully encapsulate the meaning of “information,” it would be insightful to map these definitions in relation to one another and explore their practical uses, following Wittgenstein’s concept of meaning as use.

All the best,
Gordana


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Organisation: CHINA
Reply to: "yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>" <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Date: Tuesday, 10 December 2024 at 12:05
To: FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation


Dear Gordana,

I wholeheartedly agree with your detailed insights on information, computing, processing, emergence, and related issues. Personally, I believe that as fundamental members of IS4SI or FIS, our current priority should be to address the longstanding impasse in Fundamental Information Science regarding the definition of information. If possible, I’d appreciate your thoughts on this matter, and look forward to discussing it together.



Best wishes,

Xueshan

From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> On Behalf Of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2024 5:12 AM
To: yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>
Cc: FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation


Dear Xueshan,

Here is how I see it.

Information and computation are deeply intertwined concepts, each lending structure and meaning to the other. Broadly speaking, information is the structure that can be encoded, stored, transmitted, and interpreted, while computation is the process that transforms, manipulates, or interprets that information according to well-defined rules or algorithms (or laws in case of natural/physical computation).

Foundations
Information: At its most fundamental, information can be viewed as a measure of distinguishability between states.
(A difference that makes a difference).
Computation: Computation involves processes or operations performed on structures (symbols or data) which represent information.

Information as the Input, Computation as the Process
In classical computing, information is represented as binary data (bits), and computation is what a computer does when it executes algorithms—step-by-step procedures that transform the input information into output information. Without information, there would be nothing to compute. Without computation, information would remain static and unchanged.

Information Processing
Many computational tasks—searching a database, sorting a list, analyzing patterns—are about rearranging or interpreting information. For example, a search algorithm processes information by examining data structures and determining whether certain pieces of information (like a keyword) are present. In doing so, it doesn't just store information; it actively transforms it.

Complexity and Information Content
The complexity of a computational task can often be related to how much information the algorithm must handle. Kolmogorov complexity, a concept at the intersection of information and computation, measures the informational complexity of a string as the length of the shortest computer program (in some fixed language) that can produce that string. This connects the notion of information content to computation.

Computing Nature - Physical and Quantum Considerations
>From a physical standpoint, the laws of thermodynamics and quantum mechanics also link information to computation. Landauer’s principle states that erasing one bit of information has a thermodynamic cost. In quantum computation, information is stored in quantum states (qubits) and manipulated through quantum gates, showing how the nature of what we consider “information” can influence how we conceive of “computation.”

Emergent Understandings – Biological and Cognitive (Intelligent) Computing
In modern interdisciplinary research, computation is often viewed as something the universe naturally “does” with information. Biological systems, for instance, process genetic information computationally to maintain life. Complex systems in nature can be understood as performing computations on the information present in their environment.
In short, information provides the content/structure, and computation provides the mechanism for change.
Together, they form the foundation of how we understand communication, problem-solving, and the nature of intelligence, both artificial and natural.

References

Cover, T. M., & Thomas, J. A. (2006) Elements of Information Theory (2nd ed.) Wiley.
This textbook connects the fundamental principles of information theory with practical computational applications, discussing how information can be stored, transmitted, and processed.

Nielsen, M. A., & Chuang, I. L. (2010) Quantum Computation and Quantum Information (10th Anniversary ed.). Cambridge University Press.
This book provides insight into how information and computation intersect at the quantum level, where the principles of quantum mechanics redefine what it means to compute and manipulate information.
These references offer a variety of perspectives—mathematical, theoretical, practical, and physical—on how information and computation are deeply connected.

Chanda P, Costa E, Hu J, Sukumar S, Van Hemert J, Walia R. Information Theory in Computational Biology: Where We Stand Today. Entropy (Basel). 2020 Jun 6;22(6):627. doi: 10.3390/e22060627.

Walker, S. I., Davies, P. C. W., & Ellis, G. F. R. (Eds.). (2017). From Matter to Life: Information and Causality. Cambridge University Press.
This collection examines how information underlies complex systems and life itself, offering insights into how computation and information processing emerge from physical processes.

Zenil, H. (Ed.). (2012) A Computable Universe: Understanding and Exploring Nature as Computation. World Scientific.
This anthology gathers leading thinkers to discuss the view of the universe as a computational structure, linking fundamental concepts of information with computational processes at all scales.

Dodig-Crnkovic, G., "Nature as a Network of Morphological Infocomputational Processes for Cognitive Agents"<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/em.rdcu.be/wf/click?upn=KP7O1RED-2BlD0F9LDqGVeSONbIB-2FAliCb-2BvSZC3eo4Os-3D_Nn1qiV7do-2F6n7b35fZ9iS8k0dXKHt4Z9gJ450wZNHiMK0jA0CAFv4UZMtqsswu4PSTdfxhw8Ug3nTORBQ-2F9xRizuONw5TZqkZXeMReSC4V-2F2E9jByBOGwOs-2BcocBAVb57Izk5tqMnHNZIxmuDeIPiHfEKJHwJ4xR3ZD4Kub0t5ZwDZuqOK5oNA9bH98Z0vULzO6xdpP8YsN8rTABzaybmQ-3D-3D__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QRDwRrEgv1zDVj_A-xhmvwtQJDNX_PHWM0iVhqX1ArK8DWAJXhjq-kWb7jnDx_EB58OTfwTPOPcBWN5eyO9zyz2sD8At_wHd$>, The European Physical Journal Special Topics, DOI: 10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/epjst.epj.org/component/toc/?task=topic&id=596__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QRDwRrEgv1zDVj_A-xhmvwtQJDNX_PHWM0iVhqX1ArK8DWAJXhjq-kWb7jnDx_EB58OTfwTPOPcBWN5eyO9zyz2sD8h0cvcB$> Eur. Phys. J. 2017, 226, 181–195. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!V7OpDQzsHV4BNo9o49x59BEBXVJU3inru8iFpo9_HAfg7MmRPMAHRZM8rWIhitbuKrlA9T628LQ7Ohtx40usG74eArg1yqTp$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1140/epjst/e2016-60362-9__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QRDwRrEgv1zDVj_A-xhmvwtQJDNX_PHWM0iVhqX1ArK8DWAJXhjq-kWb7jnDx_EB58OTfwTPOPcBWN5eyO9zyz2sD0jAWGhK$>


With best wishes,
Gordana



From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Organisation: CHINA
Reply to: "yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>" <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Date: Friday, 6 December 2024 at 09:36
To: FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation

Dear Gordana,
It can be argued that information processing and information transmission are two parallel issues; however, it may be inappropriate to suggest that information processing and information structure are parallel. Drawing on Joseph's expertise, I am more inclined to see research on information structure as an ontological study of information, while research on information processing and transmission should be viewed as a study of information dynamics. If we can provide both ontological and dynamic explanations for any specialized information problem, then we will have achieved a significant milestone.
Mark's proposal to study information problems in computers is very clear. Adhering to his rigorous academic standards, he has provided precise definitions for each concept: Hardware, Software, and Infware. The computer science community is home to some of the brightest scientists in the world today, and after 20 years, if information problems in computer science can indeed be studied, why aren’t computer scientists addressing them? I believe the issue lies in the nature of computer IPS; they are heteropoietic, whereas only autopoietic information systems hold genuine research value. I have not read Mark's original research on this topic, so my comments may not be entirely accurate and should be taken as a reference.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> On Behalf Of Gordana Dodig Crnkovic
Sent: Friday, December 6, 2024 1:42 AM
To: yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>; FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science. Information and Computation

Dear Xueshan

I would like to comment on the following passage:
“Dear Gordana,
They are not parallel. We are not discussing the same issue.
I was shocked to see Mark's statement; we all coincidentally thought of the root of the word "information" in English. Mark used "inf," while I used "infor," and the root of the word "goods" is "ware." The significance of Mark's work lies in his attempt to bring computer science back to the path of information science. ‘Hardware,’ ‘Software,’ and ‘Infware’ – three beautiful instances of parallelism. If it were me, I would likely have created this new word as well. It is already a well-known mystery that computer science does not study information issues.
Gordana, thank you for providing this clue.

Best wishes,
Xueshan”

This was the response to my original inquiry regarding Mark Burgin's perspective, as described in his book:
Burgin, M. (2005). Super-Recursive Algorithms,<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/link.springer.com/book/10.1007/b138114__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBT_J-ci1$> Springer Monographs in Computer Science. p. 4:
"Any IPS, we denote it by W, consists of three components:

  *   Hardware, which consists of physical devices of the Information Processing System, IPS.
  *   Software, which contains programs that regulate the IPS functioning.
  *   Infware, which represents information processed by the IPS."
Mark’s concept of “infware” (which, in my opinion, could alternatively be termed “infoware”) aligns interestingly with the linguistic layers of syntax, semantics, and pragmatics. This demonstrates a parallel between the structure of information and its processing within computational systems.

The connection between information and computation is fundamental: Information is a structure. Computation is information processing.

In Europe Computer Science (Computing) field is named “Informatics”.

World Scientific has a book series: World Scientific Series in Information Studies<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/series/wssis__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBYVjKnoR$>
to which many of the members of FIS community as well as IS4SI community have contributed during the years.
Book series was edited for many years by Mark Burgin. Here are the series volumes for reference:

Volume 17-Forthcoming -Understanding Information and Its Role as a Tool: In Memory of Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/13892__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBYW3dvwG$>
Marcin J Schroeder<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Schroeder*2C*Marcin*J__;JSsr!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBUGZmEr1$> (Akita International University, Japan) and
Wolfgang Hofkirchner<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Hofkirchner*2C*Wolfgang__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBZlMFRWP$> (TU Wien, Austria & The Institute for a Global Sustainable Information Society (GSIS), Austria)

Volume 16-Probability, Information, and Physics: Problems with Quantum Mechanics in the Context of a Novel Probability Theory<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/13319__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBUdivYLu$>
Paolo Rocchi<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Rocchi*2C*Paolo__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBekIwcmz$> (IBM, Italy & LUISS University, Italy)

Volume 15-Chaos, Information, and the Future of Physics: The Seaman-Rössler Dialogue with Information Perspectives by Burgin and Seaman<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/13280__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBW01EbBy$>
William Seaman<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Seaman*2C*William__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBYn6b74U$> (Duke University, USA),
Otto E Rössler<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/R**Assler*2C*Otto*E__;w7YlKys!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBb9um78c$> (University of Tübingen, Germany), and
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA)

Volume 14-The Logic of the Third: A Paradigm Shift to a Shared Future for Humanity<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/12985__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBWdrmfg_$>
Wolfgang Hofkirchner<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Hofkirchner*2C*Wolfgang__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBZlMFRWP$> (The Institute for a Global Sustainable Information Society, Vienna, Austria)

Volume 13-Ontological Information: Information in the Physical World<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/12601__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBTq6KVOl$>
Roman Krzanowski<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Krzanowski*2C*Roman__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBb9S5XBP$> (The Pontifical University of John Paul II, Poland)

Volume 12-Trilogy of Numbers and Arithmetic: Book 1: History of Numbers and Arithmetic: An Information Perspective<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/12273__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBbT7TUfM$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA)

Volume 11-Theoretical Information Studies: Information in the World<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/11191__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSXQQw3y$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA) and
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Dodig-Crnkovic*2C*Gordana__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBay1vt5B$> (Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden & Mälardalen University, Sweden)

Volume 10-Philosophy and Methodology of Information: The Study of Information in the Transdisciplinary Perspective<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/11190__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBcIS1l8V$>
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Dodig-Crnkovic*2C*Gordana__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBay1vt5B$> (Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden & Mälardalen University, Sweden) and
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA)

Volume 9-Information Studies and the Quest for Transdisciplinarity: Unity through Diversity<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10016__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBfGrG9Am$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (UCLA) and
Wolfgang Hofkirchner<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Hofkirchner*2C*Wolfgang__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBZlMFRWP$> (Vienna University of Technology, Austria)

Volume 8-The Future Information Society: Social and Technological Problems<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10015__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBcM2J8QZ$>
Wolfgang Hofkirchner<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Hofkirchner*2C*Wolfgang__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBZlMFRWP$> (Vienna University of Technology, Austria) and
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (UCLA)

Volume 7-Information Theory Models of Instabilities in Critical Systems<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10214__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBaVBzZd-$>
Rodrick Wallace<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Wallace*2C*Rodrick__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBROy9dnY$> (Columbia University, USA)

Volume 6-Information and Complexity<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/10017__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBWaXmXsF$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (UCLA) and
Cristian S Calude<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Calude*2C*Cristian*S__;JSsr!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSTArZ-E$> (University of Auckland, New Zealand)

Volume 5-Theory of Knowledge: Structures and Processes<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/8893__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBblAH5xR$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (UCLA)

Volume 4-An Information Approach to Mitochondrial Dysfunction: Extending Swerdlow's Hypothesis<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/9527__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBUYD48yX$>
Rodrick Wallace<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Wallace*2C*Rodrick__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBROy9dnY$> (Columbia University, USA)

Volume 3-Emergent Information: A Unified Theory of Information Framework<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/7805__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBaUNOhHO$>
Wolfgang Hofkirchner<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Hofkirchner*2C*Wolfgang__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBZlMFRWP$> (Vienna University of Technology, Austria)

Volume 2-Information and Computation: Essays on Scientific and Philosophical Understanding of Foundations of Information and Computation<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/7637__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBd-8XUyw$>
Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Dodig-Crnkovic*2C*Gordana__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBay1vt5B$> (Mälardalen University, Sweden) and
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA)

Volume 1-Theory of Information: Fundamentality, Diversity and Unification<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/worldscibooks/10.1142/7048__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBfHZ6ruC$>
Mark Burgin<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.worldscientific.com/author/Burgin*2C*Mark__;JSs!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SZCLtfB-RpGZJrjsbZ9Wcw-pVbw69K8QbmBoBOD435-v1mdSbK8iefs6_k8nawrcKY1naRZEoxIAn7LNgp0LB-uaBSLYs8Sa$> (University of California, Los Angeles, USA)

This collection, especially Volume 2, provides insights into the relationship between information (structure) and computation (its dynamics), with contributions from prominent scholars like Marvin Minsky, Aaron Sloman, Oron Shagrir, John Collier, Greg Chaitin, and Søren Brier, among others.

Best regards,
Gordana


From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Organisation: CHINA
Reply to: "yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>" <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>>
Date: Thursday, 5 December 2024 at 14:31
To: FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science

Dear Joseph,
No, no, we are your students, forever. For many years, you have always used beautiful language and a natural scientist's perspective to sharply narrate every information issue, which is evident to all.
Today, from a philosophical perspective, you have examined every question I have raised, and I am very pleased. Especially your review: “Hidden in Cloud 4 is the 'philosopher's stone' with which the nature of information can be tested. The question is whether the phenomenon under study is capable of effecting change.”
We have exchanges over 10 years and understand each other very easily.
Best wishes，
Xueshan
==========================
Dear Marcus,
Explanation 1*: It explains the background behind my proposal for the concept of inforware.
Explanation 2**: An inforware is divided into three levels: Information, Sign, and Substrate. The substrate is at the bottom level and is typically outside the scope of information science research. "ENTITY" and "AGENT" are good words, feel free to use them instead of worrying too much about what I said.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
==========================
Dear Eric,
I really appreciate your explanation. When reviewing the different definitions of "information" by information scientists, we find that many scholars define it as "code" or "sequence". At the same time, when looking back at the history of the definition of genes, from the original concept of “gene” to “genetic material”, most molecular biologists prefer to use "information" instead of "gene" today. Therefore, I would like try to express this issue using a language of fundamental information science: CRISPR is a technology that edits base signs sequences through genetic engineering, ultimately leading to changes in genetic information. I don't know if this statement is correct.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
==========================
Dear Gordana,
They are not parallel. We are not discussing the same issue.
I was shocked to see Mark's statement; we all coincidentally thought of the root of the word "information" in English. Mark used "inf," while I used "infor," and the root of the word "goods" is "ware." The significance of Mark's work lies in his attempt to bring computer science back to the path of information science. “Hardware”, “Software”, “Infware" – three beautiful instances of parallelism. If it were me, I would likely have created this new word as well. It is already a well-known mystery that computer science does not study information issues.
Gordana, thank you for providing this clue.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
==========================
Dear Francesco,
Your triad of meaning, information and communication is very interesting. Let's hear everyone's comments.
Best wishes,
Xueshan
==========================
From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> On Behalf Of joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2024 6:32 PM
To: yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>; FIS <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science

Dear Professor Yan,

You have given us – your "students" – a very difficult assignment. To make it a little easier for myself, I decided to look at the different issues from the perspective of the ontic-epistemic distinction, starting with those in your title. The real problem for me, thus is with the two lines of the second footnote (**):

Clouds

      On first thought, a homogeneous form constituted by water droplets; on a second, the very embodiment of ontic change, appearance, growth and disappearance, with violent exchanges of energy as lightning.

Signs

      The sign is a representation, as accurate as you please, of a real object or process. On this basis it is essentially epistemic. Information, on the other hand, has both epistemic and ontic properties, and cannot be reduced to signs.

Meaning (Cloud 1)

      Following the second point, information and meaning can be considered as two different expressions of one existence (or existence tout court), both embodying and applicable to change.

Brain or Animal Informatics (Cloud 2)

      This Cloud seems mainly concerned with Informatics as an epistemic field, essentially self-defined. I have nothing particular to add.

Genetics as a Discipline of Informatics (Cloud 3)

      What is being elaborated here is a further aspect of what I have concluded is an epistemic domain. Bases can function as signs, if you will, but the phenomena of interest are, exactly, those in neuroscience and endocrinology and it is the ontic properties of the bases (residual charge, etc.) that determine how the genetic material functions.

Communication between Infowares

      Hidden in this Cloud 4 is the “philosopher’s stone” with which the nature of information can be tested. The question, as many have stated in their definitions of information, is whether the phenomenon under study is capable of effecting change. On this basis, I can confirm by experience that my cats (pace) and I communicated.

Exploration of Fundamental Information Science

      The commonalities between in information disciplines, as embodied in most of the above Clouds, remain for me epistemic, questions of semantic modes of existence. That their “complexity and enormity” exist all right and have been difficult to handle in science and philosophy is clear. In this view, however, Cloud 2 on Meaning is the counterargument to Line **, which I reproduce here:

      “Studies focused solely on substrates typically (emphasis mine) fall under the technical or natural sciences rather than information science.”

      What this says to me is that at worst (at best?), my ontic approach to meaning-information is a-typical but can exist. It thus co-exists with the largely epistemic standard view, and this co-existence can be studied as an aspect of information science as well. I give the last word to the 5th Century BCE Greek playwright Aristophanes, whose a-typical play The Clouds focused on problems of knowledge and existence (“The Thinkery”).

Best wishes,
Joseph

Le 02.12.2024 10:09 CET, Xueshan Yan <yxs at pku.edu.cn<mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn>> a écrit :



Dear colleagues,

I have summarized five sets of puzzles faced by fundamental information science and called them 'clouds' ― some of which have been emphasized by Pedro on many occasions. I am now glade to hear everyone's different opinions.



Best wishes,

Xueshan Yan

Professor Emeritus

Department of Information Management

Peking University, China







Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science

Xueshan Yan

Inforware*: Information must exist in signs, and signs must exist on substrates**. We define a trinity composed of information, sign, and substrate as an Inforware.

Four Concomitant Disciplines: Based on the structure of an inforware, we have Informatics for studying information, and Semiotics for studying signs―the existence mode of information. Since communication is the transmission of information and computation is the processing of information, we also have another two fundamental disciplines: Communication Studies and Computation Studies. These four disciplines are concomitant; that is, if one is present, the other three (or more) will eventually emerge.

Cloud 1. Information and Meaning: What is information? Since 1948, information scientists have been discussing it for 76 years, yet still cannot provide a definitive answer. What is meaning? Since 1825, linguists have been debating it for 200 years and still cannot reach a definitive conclusion. Nevertheless, linguistics has been established successfully. Let’s consider a hypothesis: if we were to suspend all discussions about the definition of information for three years, what else could we do? From a human perspective, are information and meaning two homogenous issues? Or are they two different expressions of one existence?

Cloud 2. Brain Informatics or Animal Informatics: It has been demonstrated that any organism with a brain inforware can communicate with others; therefore, brain informatics must exist, ―storing, sending, and receiving information are fundamental functions of the brain―, and human informatics already exists. Similarly, we could explore bee informatics, elephant informatics, and so on. Can we assume that there are as many types of animal informatics as there are animal species?

Cloud 3. Genetics as a Discipline of Informatics: Cells can communicate. The central dogma of molecular biology describes the pathway of DNA→RNA→protein, through which genetic information flows. In this process, DNA serves as substrate, bases function as signs, and genomics represents informatics. If we propose that genetics is the most successful branch of informatics, what would be the response from biologists? Could a similar phenomenon also be observed in neuroscience and endocrinology?

Cloud 4. Communication between Inforwares: Some speculate that two supramolecules can communicate with each other. But can two ordinary molecules communicate? Can two atoms communicate? Can two celestial bodies communicate? Can plants communicate with one another? Can different inforwares communicate across different levels? Is the communication between humans and cats true communication (language comprehension) or false communication (conditional reflex)?

Cloud 5. Exploration of Fundamental Information Science: Can we regard fundamental information science as an exploration based on the inductive method, focusing on the commonalities among various fundamental information disciplines, especially the four concomitant disciplines mentioned above? The complexity and enormity of this venture have far exceeded anyone's imagination. Is it one of the most challenging disciplines to study in contemporary times? Or, does it not exist at all?

---------------------

*Any discipline has its own concept framework, which is why I coined the new term Inforware. For example, the computer science is built on the two primary concepts of hardware and software.

**Studies focused solely on substrates typically fall under the technical or natural sciences rather than information science.

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