[Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science.Information and Computation

[Xueshan Yan]

Dear Karl,

I’m pleased to see that you’ve commented on all the points I made, and I appreciate your insightful opinions. Given the complexity of the topics, it’s nearly impossible to cover everything comprehensively in this forum. Instead, I’d like to spotlight a particularly interesting question for discussion.

I mentioned that organisms with brains, which I refer to as an "inforwares," are capable of information communication, which could lead to the emergence of corresponding informatics. You have offered a counterargument: If the message is an observed one, ......... then the message carries information.

I find your perspective compelling, as it aligns with the principles of quantum mechanics. This brings to mind Einstein's famous question: Is the moon still there when I am not observing it? However, I believe that information communication within bees exists so we can discuss bee information, even if we cannot directly observe the messages or information pertaining to bees. Let’s leave this question open for our readers to ponder.

Best wishes,

Xueshan

 

From: fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Karl Javorszky
Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 10:08 PM
To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: [Fis] Five Clouds over Fundamental Information Science.Information and Computation

 

Dear Xueshan Yan,

Let me address your excellent points:

Inforware*: Information must exist in signs, and signs must exist on substrates**. We define a trinity composed of information, sign, and substrate as an Inforware.

Are we sure that new words are needed? Sign + substrate has been called a symbol with properties. The “substrate” is an element of a collection and “sign” is a property of that element. I support your wish to deal with logical elements that are different to each other (in contrast to the present-day Sumerian-influenced mantra).

Four Concomitant Disciplines: Based on the structure of an inforware, we have Informatics for studying information, and Semiotics for studying signs—the existence mode of information. Since communication is the transmission of information and computation is the processing of information, we also have another two fundamental disciplines: Communication Studies and Computation Studies. These four disciplines are concomitant; that is, if one is present, the other three (or more) will eventually emerge.

Cloud 1. Information and Meaning: What is information? Since 1948, information scientists have been discussing it for 76 years, yet still cannot provide a definitive answer. What is meaning? Since 1825, linguists have been debating it for 200 years and still cannot reach a definitive conclusion. Nevertheless, linguistics has been established successfully. Let’s consider a hypothesis: if we were to suspend all discussions about the definition of information for three years, what else could we do? From a human perspective, are information and meaning two homogenous issues? Or are they two different expressions of one existence?

Information has been defined (eg Liaisons Among Symbols) as the totality of ∆ (n?, n!).

Meaning has been defined (op. cit.) as the relation of a context to at least one of the Central Elements.

The basic duality is as much an axiom as is a+b=c. The basic duality becomes visible if one treats a limited collection of identifiable elements as undergoing continual changes.

Cloud 2. Brain Informatics or Animal Informatics: It has been demonstrated that any organism with a brain inforware can communicate with others; therefore, brain informatics must exist, —storing, sending, and receiving information are fundamental functions of the brain—, and human informatics already exists. Similarly, we could explore bee informatics, elephant informatics, and so on. Can we assume that there are as many types of animal informatics as there are animal species?

No, we can not. Any machine can send a message to any other machine. If the message is an observed one and there exists an expected form/content of the message, then the message carries information. 

Cloud 3. Genetics as a Discipline of Informatics: Cells can communicate. The central dogma of molecular biology describes the pathway of DNA→RNA→protein, through which genetic information flows. In this process, DNA serves as substrate, bases function as signs, and genomics represents informatics. If we propose that genetics is the most successful branch of informatics, what would be the response from biologists? Could a similar phenomenon also be observed in neuroscience and endocrinology?

The DNA is, first of all, a sequence. The general form of the sequence appears to be built according to rules which we do not understand as to their principle. Some peculiar strands of DNA applied science learns to understand, one by one, the meaning (role in the construction) of. Genetics is a daughter of informatics, namely the linear/planar representation of a system of coincidences that are realized in 3+D dimensions. The linear and the spatial version of the same truth is what we are presently trying to figure out. The truth is identical in that, that both versions mean the same (extent, degree, location, frequency, etc.) of being deviant to the most usual (the expected). There is one great and detailed blueprint about how a specific production can deviate to the most usual version of the production. This one great and detailed blueprint can be read as well as a long sequence and as well as a combination of overlapping groups. 

The great and general blueprint about how parts assemble to build a Whole can be read out of a+b=c. The elementary steps are: 1. Create etalon collection, 2. Subject the etalon collection to periodic changes,  3. Note the place-order coincidence, 4. Redistribute the right side to the left, creating 2(a+b), 5. Note the amount-order coincidence.

The data gained such is the general collection of possibilities of parts assembling into wholes. This is the web of “expected” values of the etalon collection. Relative to this Generally Most Usual and Expected Among the Coincidences that Can Be the Case, relative to this is all that exists in a specific deviation, which extent of being otherwise we call information. The DNA is exactly so much (in that extent) deviant to the theoretical DNA as the 3D+ organism is deviant to the theoretical organism matching the theoretical DNA. Information is the extent of being otherwise. That, to which both the linear arrangement and the spatial-chemical-physical-electrical-magnetic arrangement are deviating to, in identical extents, is the general form of an ordered arrangement in which alternatives (offset differences) are possible. 

Cloud 4. Communication between Inforwares: Some speculate that two supramolecules can communicate with each other. But can two ordinary molecules communicate? Can two atoms communicate? Can two celestial bodies communicate? Can plants communicate with one another? Can different inforwares communicate across different levels? Is the communication between humans and cats true communication (language comprehension) or false communication (conditional reflex)?

The supermolecules are within a habitat and are related to each other. Two constituent parts of a Whole have a relation between each other. This liaison is what Liaisons Among Symbols speaks about. The term “communicate” is an anthropomorphism. Let us try to reformulate what the question investigates. Parts of a whole do interact, and the parts may have a feedback restrictor/enabler relation to each other.

Cloud 5. Exploration of Fundamental Information Science: Can we regard fundamental information science as an exploration based on the inductive method, focusing on the commonalities among various fundamental information disciplines, especially the four concomitant disciplines mentioned above? The complexity and enormity of this venture have far exceeded anyone's imagination. Is it one of the most challenging disciplines to study in contemporary times? Or, does it not exist at all?

There is no need to draw the system of epistemology turned on its head. Philosophy is the mother of all sciences. Her daughter Order is the Mother of all Mathematics and her daughters. Whether a daughter marries into genetics, kinetics, chemistry or data processing, these daughters will all remain true to the principles of their mother and grandmother: order is a computable state, order means the degree of the fit of an object to  both of the properties of the object and the position of the object among its peers. 

 

Respectfully 

Karl

 

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