[Fis] Emotional Sentience & Information (reply from A. Sloman)

Fri Apr 12 09:36:09 CEST 2024

Dear All, to be accepted, men must love each other.. Society is
nothing more than a set of retro-active relationalities which also or
above all concern the life of the economy or the economy of life, both
for better and for worse. This involves many adaptation processes to
deal with the conservation, distribution and valorization of natural
and produced resources. The goods in question cannot only be useful,
but also beautiful, good, just, true and legal. Their values,
therefore, are evaluated using interactive multi-criteria matrices.
The criteria   or factors (physical or monetary) are quantitative,
qualitative and numerical. In a nutshell, the total degree of
appreciation of the matrix can be obtained, as the sum of the overall
degrees of action of the individual criteria multiplied by the
corresponding weights. Having to evaluate either a kilo of bread or a
work of art, how do you consider only its utilitarian importance,
neglecting its beauty or goodness? This is why we must always, more or
less, talk about "emotional intelligence" which I prefer call
emo-rationality. So I have invented a new science of value and
evaluations suitable for the construction of a civic or social
economy. Sorry, if I have been longer than usual. A hug. Francis.

Cari Tutti,
gli uomini per essere accettati debbono amarsi reciprocamente..
La società non è altro che un insieme di relazionalità retro-attive che
riguardano anche o soprattutto la vita dell'economia o l'economia della
vita,
sia nel bene che nel male. Ciò comporta tanti processi di ad-attamento
per far fronte alla conservazione, distribuzione e valorizzazione delle
risorse naturali e prodotte. I beni in questione, non possono essere solo
utili,
ma anche belli, buoni, giusti, veri e legali,  I loro valori, quindi, si
valutano mediante
matrici multi-criteriali interattive. I criteri   o fattori (fisici o
monetari) sono quantitativi,
qualitativi e numerici. In estrema sintesi si può ottenere il grado di
apprezzamento
totale della matrice, quale somma dei gradi complessivi di azione dei
singoli criteri moltiplicati
per i corrispettivi pesi. Dovendo valutare o un Kilo di pane o  un'opera
d'arte come si fa a
considerare solo la sua importanza utilitaristica, tras-curandone bellezza
o bontà?
Ecco perché bisogna sempre, più o meno, parlare di  "intelligenza emotiva"
che io preferisco
chiamare emo-ra-zionalità.
Sicché Io ho inventato una nuova scienza del valore e delle valutazioni
ad-atta alla costruzione
di  un'economia civica o sociale.
Scusatemi, se sono stato più lungo del solito.
Un abbraccio.
Francesco.

Il giorno gio 11 apr 2024 alle ore 20:16 Pedro C. Marijuán <
pedroc.marijuan en gmail.com> ha scritto:

> *(I am reentering into the list Aaron's reply--P.)*
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Pedro,
> Many thanks for your very useful feedback on my message.
>
> I confess I had signed out of the Fis list because getting rid of the
> multiple
> appended branching histories or even just ignoring them was too much
> hassle. I
> get these messages on a departmental computer (accessed from home), where
> I am
> still allowed to use email and post and update web sites despite having
> formally
> retired many years ago. So I did not wish to add huge amounts of Fis stuff
> to
> the (linux) filestore, in addition to all my web sites and email messages
> both
> via email and stuff used at workshops/conferences.
>
> [I no longer travel to conferences at age 87 with no research budget and,
> more
> importantly, downward sliding brain damaged by dementia (Alzheimers),
> currently
> being treated with memantine. though I am sceptical about the ability of
> current
> medical science to cope with the complexities of brain biochemistry -- the
> current focus of my research on cognition.]
>
> I have added Gordana to the Cc: list because she and I have been in
> contact for
> several years, including discussing some of the issues in my message
> posted to
> Fis.
>
> You wrote:
>
> Many thanks for your scholarly contribution (excuse the delay, but at fis we are
> not always very punctual in our responses).
>
>
> I quite understand, especially as my message referred to a very large and
> partly
> indigestible web site, which most recipients would not have time to
> explore.
> Your response has made the message worth while!
>
> I hope you don't mind my format, quoting bits of your message by indenting
> with
> ">", a style copied from some old linux software.
>
> Double quotes ">>" refer to text from my message to which you are
> replying. If
> my previous message contained quotes from earlier messages or documents
> they
> would now be indicated by ">>>", etc.
>
> [Pedro:]
>
> The origins of nervous systems attracted my attention for a long time. So, your
> paragraph below strongly resonates to me:
>
>
> responding to:
>
> [Aaron]
>
> Inspired by those ideas (and others, including Kant's comments on limitations of
> David Hume's theories) my own work, begun over half a century ago, has recently
> taken a new turn leading to a conjecture that the earliest ancestors of animals
> with brains were single-celled organisms that were ancestors of current
> synapses, which began to engage in various forms of collaboration, producing
> increasingly complex organisms in which nervous systems evolved to enable
> communication and coordination between subsystems, initially linking synapse
> ancestors, then later providing connections to increasingly remote and
> increasingly complex body parts, e.g. digestive systems, circulatory systems,
> breathingn systems, movable limbs or wings, etc.
>
>
> You:
>
> If I am not wrong, sex is an almost universal characteristic of eukaryotes, from
> the very beginning, including unicellular ones.
>
>
> Yes and that is very important, with implications discussed in the work of
> Tibor
> Ganti
>
> The Principles of Life,
> (Translation of the 1971 Hungarian edition),
> Eds. E. Szathmary, & J. Griesemer, OUP, New York.
>
> The book, presents Ganti's "Chemoton" theory, specifying requirements for
> the
> earliest single-celled organisms capable of sexual reproduction.
>
> There's an online website with a lot more information about his work and
> related
> work, produced by Gert Korthof, who also provides a large collection of
> related references:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wasdarwinwrong.com/korthof66.htm__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SclWpOCzTO0jYj5G-8CVQ7C30U8RHvMWZ6hIaIpq78uEIqsVPH1ILc0jiPYNLrryvlTw_XrQE5HwU-vRL70J7P3yZMxK$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wasdarwinwrong.com/korthof66.htm__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhj8dQtfd$>
>
> You again:
>
> Then, for the sexual intercourse a mutual link has to be created where species
> identity, sex type, cycle phase, metabolic status, and other trophic
> determinants closer to the future immune system have to be examined.
>
> This is the ancestral eukaryotic synapse, which will evolve from sex background
> towards mainly the immunological function first, and later towards the
> bioelectricity function in multicellulars (with several steps covering motility,
> sensibility, organ coordination, etc., as you mention).
>
>
> I'll need some time to digest all those ideas and relate them to what I had
> previously learnt. I don't recall those ideas in Ganti's work.
>
> Continuing your quote from my message:
>
> [Aaron]
>
> I now think that those ancient biochemical mechanisms in synapses can provide
> answers to questions about ancient forms of human intelligence leading to
> discoveries in geometry and topology, such as Pythagoras' theorem, centuries
> before Pythagoras was born, using mechanisms that are related to forms of
> intelligence in other species e.g. nest-building birds, apes, elephants, aquatic
> mammals, etc. Octopuses are an amazing special case that I don't pretend to
> understand!
>
>
> You responded:
>
> The immune-neural link keeps a close functional interrelation, as Kate comments,
> related to behavioral options and their outcomes; but also in a crucial aspect
> of identity surveillance for the sake of the whole organism. This involves
> playing fascinating formal games, a la Godelian, as Sheri Markose has discussed
> in this list. And also Lou Kauffman.
>
>
> Those ideas will take me some time to digest. One of the things I learnt
> only
> recently (mentioned in the metamorphosis.html web site) is that newborn
> mammals
> have to acquire immunity mechanisms not from their genome but from bacteria
> picked up in the mothers birth canal, during the birth process. (Which
> apparently can cause problems for babies born via caesarian section,
> unless the
> surgeons understand this and compensate, which doesn't always happen,
> unfortunately.)
>
> I have not yet looked at this but will do:
>
> [Pedro]
>
> See Godelian Self-referential Genomes<http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/2022-October/003184.html> <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/2022-October/003184.html>:
>
> Sheri Markose. October 25, 2022, inhttps://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhlJg7Quz$>
>
>
> (By the way, The fis list has a pretty long history, as you can see there, of
> more than 25 years of discussion sessions. It would be great if you could chair
> one of the coming sessions).
>
>
> Thanks for the suggestion/offer.
>
> I think that in view of my unreliable brain I should not attempt that. But
> I
> would not mind jointly co-chairing with you (or someone you propose) in
> charge.
>
> [P]
>
> I remember that in one of my past messages I mentioned to Sheri (or to someone
> else?) that emotions become the guardians of our behavioral integrity,
> projecting in an extended temporal framework the instant now, so that it
> accommodates to the whole fitness maintenance. So i think emotions, and their
> progressive complexification, may respond to formal games too (far beyond
> conventional game theory)...
>
>
> I have done a lot of work over many years, with several collaborators, on
> emotions, and related phenomena (desires, hopes, fears, preferences,
> values,
> attitudes and related phenomena, not all of which have names in colloquial
> language or current psychological terminology -- in what I called the
> CogAff
> (Cognition and Affect) project. But I don't immediately recognise what you
> are
> referring to here -- perhaps a note on what you mean by "formal games",
> with
> examples, would help me.
>
> I am aware of many formal models proposed by psychologists and others that
> I
> think don't do justice to the complexity of biological affective
> mechanisms,
> states and processes. In contrast, great novelists and playwrights have
> deep
> (but unarticulated) insights used in their novels and plays.
>
> Pedro:
>
> It could be great if we can throw more explanatory light to social emotions,
> that so many troubles have created in the past and continue to create. I think
> this dovetails with Aaron views:
>
>
> Aaron:
>
> I don't think current popular concepts of 'emotion' are rich enough to support
> these theories.
>
> I have recently been working on an online document about all this (still work in
> progress) including references to a huge, varied, and still growing collection
> of evidence, along with my own new speculations about synapses (still under
> development) available here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SclWpOCzTO0jYj5G-8CVQ7C30U8RHvMWZ6hIaIpq78uEIqsVPH1ILc0jiPYNLrryvlTw_XrQE5HwU-vRL70J7LRK_1OH$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhipj5RW-$>
> .....
>
>
> Thanks for this comment:
> [Pedro:]
>
> Yes, it is great stuff. Some fis colleagues are also working in "artificial
> genomes" and biomorphologies. We could also discuss whether the new AI might
> contribute to adumbrate those "remote control" transformations unexplainable
> currently, as you say. If you can have the patience to endure our many tangents
> and digressions, we can have an exciting discussion time!
>
>
> I've been lucky enough to have opportunities for many tangents and
> digressions
> since I switched from mathematics to philosophy of mathematics as a
> graduate
> student (around 1959) which later led me into other areas of philosophy
> etc.
> etc. Some of the deepest switches have occurred since around June 2023
> (age 86)
> when I started thinking about the complexities of (remote?) control
> required for
> insect metamorphosis, after spending the previous two years thinking about
> the
> multi-layered complexities of developmental processes in eggs of
> vertebrates
> (partly encouraged by Gordana).
>
> They are still continuing.
>
> All the best,
>
>
> and to you
>
> Thanks again. I hope my damaged brain has produced a message that is
> readable!
>
> Aaron
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/*axs__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SclWpOCzTO0jYj5G-8CVQ7C30U8RHvMWZ6hIaIpq78uEIqsVPH1ILc0jiPYNLrryvlTw_XrQE5HwU-vRL70J7JGKWG0-$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/*axs__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhrpXN4nI$>
>
>
>
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