<div dir="ltr"><div><pre id="m_-4615773144841648602m_-7744464798855218875m_934084913939402010gmail-tw-target-text" aria-label="Testo tradotto" dir="ltr" style="font-size:28px;line-height:36px;background-color:rgb(248,249,250);border:none;padding:2px 0.14em 2px 0px;font-family:inherit;overflow:hidden;width:270px;color:rgb(31,31,31)"><pre class="gmail-tw-data-text gmail-tw-text-large gmail-tw-ta" id="gmail-tw-target-text" aria-label="Testo tradotto" dir="ltr" style="line-height:36px;border:none;padding:2px 0.14em 2px 0px;font-family:inherit;overflow:hidden;width:270px"><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en">Dear All, to be accepted, men must love each other.. Society is nothing more than a set of retro-active relationalities which also or above all concern the life of the economy or the economy of life, both for better and for worse. This involves many adaptation processes to deal with the conservation, distribution and valorization of natural and produced resources. The goods in question cannot only be useful, but also beautiful, good, just, true and legal. Their values, therefore, are evaluated using interactive multi-criteria matrices. The criteria or factors (physical or monetary) are quantitative, qualitative and numerical. In a nutshell, the total degree of appreciation of the matrix can be obtained, as the sum of the overall degrees of action of the individual criteria multiplied by the corresponding weights. Having to evaluate either a kilo of bread or a work of art, how do you consider only its utilitarian importance, neglecting its beauty or goodness? This is why we must always, more or less, talk about "emotional intelligence" which I prefer call emo-rationality. So I have invented a new science of value and evaluations suitable for the construction of a civic or social economy. Sorry, if I have been longer than usual. A hug. Francis.</span></pre>
</pre></div><div>Cari Tutti,</div><div>gli uomini per essere accettati debbono amarsi reciprocamente.. </div><div>La società non è altro che un insieme di relazionalità retro-attive che </div><div>riguardano anche o soprattutto la vita dell'economia o l'economia della vita, </div><div>sia nel bene che nel male. Ciò comporta tanti processi di ad-attamento</div><div>per far fronte alla conservazione, distribuzione e valorizzazione delle </div><div>risorse naturali e prodotte. I beni in questione, non possono essere solo utili, </div><div>ma anche belli, buoni, giusti, veri e legali, I loro valori, quindi, si valutano mediante </div><div>matrici multi-criteriali interattive. I criteri o fattori (fisici o monetari) sono quantitativi, </div><div>qualitativi e numerici. In estrema sintesi si può ottenere il grado di apprezzamento </div><div>totale della matrice, quale somma dei gradi complessivi di azione dei singoli criteri moltiplicati </div><div>per i corrispettivi pesi. Dovendo valutare o un Kilo di pane o un'opera d'arte come si fa a </div><div>considerare solo la sua importanza utilitaristica, tras-curandone bellezza o bontà?</div><div>Ecco perché bisogna sempre, più o meno, parlare di "intelligenza emotiva" che io preferisco </div><div>chiamare emo-ra-zionalità.</div><div>Sicché Io ho inventato una nuova scienza del valore e delle valutazioni ad-atta alla costruzione </div><div>di un'economia civica o sociale.</div><div>Scusatemi, se sono stato più lungo del solito.</div><div>Un abbraccio.</div><div>Francesco.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 11 apr 2024 alle ore 20:16 Pedro C. Marijuán <<a href="mailto:pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedroc.marijuan@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><i>(I am reentering into the list Aaron's reply--P.)</i><br>
</p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p>Dear Pedro,</p>
Many thanks for your very useful feedback on my message.<br>
<br>
I confess I had signed out of the Fis list because getting rid of
the multiple<br>
appended branching histories or even just ignoring them was too much
hassle. I<br>
get these messages on a departmental computer (accessed from home),
where I am<br>
still allowed to use email and post and update web sites despite
having formally<br>
retired many years ago. So I did not wish to add huge amounts of Fis
stuff to<br>
the (linux) filestore, in addition to all my web sites and email
messages both<br>
via email and stuff used at workshops/conferences.<br>
<br>
[I no longer travel to conferences at age 87 with no research budget
and, more<br>
importantly, downward sliding brain damaged by dementia
(Alzheimers), currently<br>
being treated with memantine. though I am sceptical about the
ability of current<br>
medical science to cope with the complexities of brain biochemistry
-- the<br>
current focus of my research on cognition.]<br>
<br>
I have added Gordana to the Cc: list because she and I have been in
contact for<br>
several years, including discussing some of the issues in my message
posted to<br>
Fis.<br>
<br>
You wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Many thanks for your scholarly contribution (excuse the delay, but at fis we are
not always very punctual in our responses).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I quite understand, especially as my message referred to a very
large and partly<br>
indigestible web site, which most recipients would not have time to
explore.<br>
Your response has made the message worth while!<br>
<br>
I hope you don't mind my format, quoting bits of your message by
indenting with<br>
">", a style copied from some old linux software.<br>
<br>
Double quotes ">>" refer to text from my message to which you
are replying. If<br>
my previous message contained quotes from earlier messages or
documents they<br>
would now be indicated by ">>>", etc.<br>
<br>
[Pedro:]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>The origins of nervous systems attracted my attention for a long time. So, your
paragraph below strongly resonates to me:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
responding to:<br>
<br>
[Aaron]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>Inspired by those ideas (and others, including Kant's comments on limitations of
David Hume's theories) my own work, begun over half a century ago, has recently
taken a new turn leading to a conjecture that the earliest ancestors of animals
with brains were single-celled organisms that were ancestors of current
synapses, which began to engage in various forms of collaboration, producing
increasingly complex organisms in which nervous systems evolved to enable
communication and coordination between subsystems, initially linking synapse
ancestors, then later providing connections to increasingly remote and
increasingly complex body parts, e.g. digestive systems, circulatory systems,
breathingn systems, movable limbs or wings, etc.
</pre></blockquote></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
You:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>If I am not wrong, sex is an almost universal characteristic of eukaryotes, from
the very beginning, including unicellular ones.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes and that is very important, with implications discussed in the
work of Tibor<br>
Ganti<br>
<br>
The Principles of Life,<br>
(Translation of the 1971 Hungarian edition),<br>
Eds. E. Szathmary, & J. Griesemer, OUP, New York.<br>
<br>
The book, presents Ganti's "Chemoton" theory, specifying
requirements for the<br>
earliest single-celled organisms capable of sexual reproduction.<br>
<br>
There's an online website with a lot more information about his work
and related<br>
work, produced by Gert Korthof, who also provides a large collection
of related references:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wasdarwinwrong.com/korthof66.htm__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhj8dQtfd$" target="_blank">https://wasdarwinwrong.com/korthof66.htm</a><br>
<br>
You again:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Then, for the sexual intercourse a mutual link has to be created where species
identity, sex type, cycle phase, metabolic status, and other trophic
determinants closer to the future immune system have to be examined.
This is the ancestral eukaryotic synapse, which will evolve from sex background
towards mainly the immunological function first, and later towards the
bioelectricity function in multicellulars (with several steps covering motility,
sensibility, organ coordination, etc., as you mention).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'll need some time to digest all those ideas and relate them to
what I had<br>
previously learnt. I don't recall those ideas in Ganti's work.<br>
<br>
Continuing your quote from my message:<br>
<br>
[Aaron]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>I now think that those ancient biochemical mechanisms in synapses can provide
answers to questions about ancient forms of human intelligence leading to
discoveries in geometry and topology, such as Pythagoras' theorem, centuries
before Pythagoras was born, using mechanisms that are related to forms of
intelligence in other species e.g. nest-building birds, apes, elephants, aquatic
mammals, etc. Octopuses are an amazing special case that I don't pretend to
understand!
</pre></blockquote></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
You responded:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>The immune-neural link keeps a close functional interrelation, as Kate comments,
related to behavioral options and their outcomes; but also in a crucial aspect
of identity surveillance for the sake of the whole organism. This involves
playing fascinating formal games, a la Godelian, as Sheri Markose has discussed
in this list. And also Lou Kauffman.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Those ideas will take me some time to digest. One of the things I
learnt only<br>
recently (mentioned in the metamorphosis.html web site) is that
newborn mammals<br>
have to acquire immunity mechanisms not from their genome but from
bacteria<br>
picked up in the mothers birth canal, during the birth process.
(Which<br>
apparently can cause problems for babies born via caesarian section,
unless the<br>
surgeons understand this and compensate, which doesn't always
happen,<br>
unfortunately.)<br>
<br>
I have not yet looked at this but will do:<br>
<br>
[Pedro]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>See Godelian Self-referential Genomes
<a href="http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/2022-October/003184.html" target="_blank"><http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/2022-October/003184.html></a>:
Sheri Markose. October 25, 2022, in
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhlJg7Quz$" target="_blank">https://fis.sciforum.net/fis-discussion-sessions/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>(By the way, The fis list has a pretty long history, as you can see there, of
more than 25 years of discussion sessions. It would be great if you could chair
one of the coming sessions).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks for the suggestion/offer.<br>
<br>
I think that in view of my unreliable brain I should not attempt
that. But I<br>
would not mind jointly co-chairing with you (or someone you propose)
in charge.<br>
<br>
[P]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I remember that in one of my past messages I mentioned to Sheri (or to someone
else?) that emotions become the guardians of our behavioral integrity,
projecting in an extended temporal framework the instant now, so that it
accommodates to the whole fitness maintenance. So i think emotions, and their
progressive complexification, may respond to formal games too (far beyond
conventional game theory)...
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have done a lot of work over many years, with several
collaborators, on<br>
emotions, and related phenomena (desires, hopes, fears, preferences,
values,<br>
attitudes and related phenomena, not all of which have names in
colloquial<br>
language or current psychological terminology -- in what I called
the CogAff<br>
(Cognition and Affect) project. But I don't immediately recognise
what you are<br>
referring to here -- perhaps a note on what you mean by "formal
games", with<br>
examples, would help me.<br>
<br>
I am aware of many formal models proposed by psychologists and
others that I<br>
think don't do justice to the complexity of biological affective
mechanisms,<br>
states and processes. In contrast, great novelists and playwrights
have deep<br>
(but unarticulated) insights used in their novels and plays.<br>
<br>
Pedro:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>It could be great if we can throw more explanatory light to social emotions,
that so many troubles have created in the past and continue to create. I think
this dovetails with Aaron views:
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Aaron:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>I don't think current popular concepts of 'emotion' are rich enough to support
these theories.
I have recently been working on an online document about all this (still work in
progress) including references to a huge, varied, and still growing collection
of evidence, along with my own new speculations about synapses (still under
development) available here:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhipj5RW-$" target="_blank">https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/metamorphosis.html</a>
.....
</pre></blockquote></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks for this comment:<br>
[Pedro:]<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Yes, it is great stuff. Some fis colleagues are also working in "artificial
genomes" and biomorphologies. We could also discuss whether the new AI might
contribute to adumbrate those "remote control" transformations unexplainable
currently, as you say. If you can have the patience to endure our many tangents
and digressions, we can have an exciting discussion time!
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I've been lucky enough to have opportunities for many tangents and
digressions<br>
since I switched from mathematics to philosophy of mathematics as a
graduate<br>
student (around 1959) which later led me into other areas of
philosophy etc.<br>
etc. Some of the deepest switches have occurred since around June
2023 (age 86)<br>
when I started thinking about the complexities of (remote?) control
required for<br>
insect metamorphosis, after spending the previous two years thinking
about the<br>
multi-layered complexities of developmental processes in eggs of
vertebrates<br>
(partly encouraged by Gordana).<br>
<br>
They are still continuing.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>All the best,
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
and to you<br>
<br>
Thanks again. I hope my damaged brain has produced a message that is
readable!<br>
<br>
Aaron<br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/*axs__;fg!!D9dNQwwGXtA!QBix3b950ePlkNzy7Zw9hCXjtI3kz-4SyjyEH5qrfR-mqkZTkFCoRF5ruUwbDrc1twUubDQICDz5zl7NBRVyhrpXN4nI$" target="_blank">http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~axs</a><br>
<br>
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