[Fis] The Basic Core of Wisdom - the main body

Mon Nov 6 21:53:52 CET 2023

  Sorry for the delayed response....

Wisdom, I think, is revealed in good judgment, and that is what
Wittgenstein's comments come down to.
I agree with Mark that specialized knowledge is not the problem. For me the
issue with the "growing heaps" is that much of it is procedural, and
prescribes what people should do in what circumstances. This is not helpful
for developing judgment.
A surgeon displays wisdom not because she carries out the prescribed
procedures of her profession to the letter, but because she balances
complex issues (e.g. quality of life, likely degree of trauma that the
patient can withstand), and then deploys her scalpel wisely. This requires
an understanding of, and commitment to a world outside herself, which
computational systems do not have. Could she display wisdom without
experiencing what it is to be a human, to have a family and friends, and
what pain birth and death are? Could she display wisdom without caring
about these matters?
Technical systems do not display judgment of this sort (including neural
networks), and I do not think that they will do so within the present
technological paradigm.

Dai

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at 13:14, Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Pedro, all,
>
> Your comment here is interesting: "Nevertheless, in our times whatever
> wisdom might be around remains buried under growing heaps of specialized,
> mostly technological knowledge."
>
> There is a key question which arises from this: Do we think that wisdom is
> separable from the 'heaps of specialized technical knowledge'? Can a
> surgeon act wisely if they don't know how to use a scalpel? Is it important
> to know and do what we are talking about at some depth of experience? I
> suspect so.
>
> So perhaps the problem is the "burying". What/who performs the burial?
> Education must be the first culprit there - what do we do about it? There's
> nothing stopping people gaining deeper specialised knowledge if they are
> so-motivated. But there is a lot that stops us making connections between
> deep practice, thought and judgement.
>
> Wittgenstein made a similar comment in his discussion on aesthetics (here: Lectures
> and Conversations on Aesthetics, Psychology, and Religious Belief -
> Wikipedia
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_and_Conversations_on_Aesthetics,_Psychology,_and_Religious_Belief__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!UDM9seONslBjXfcZ8UBWA03nVBsuMBazB9J3KhN_Nu1Rabje1TQ00vqtl9Gae2nbSkArGz7p83TSbENdFH7ffuM$>
> ):
>
>> When we make an aesthetic judgement about a thing, we do not just gape at
>> it and say: "Oh! How marvellous!" We distinguish between a person who knows
>> what he is talking about and a person who doesn't. If a person is to admire
>> English poetry, he must know English. Suppose that a Russian who doesn't
>> know English is overwhelmed by a sonnet admitted to be good. We would say
>> that he does not know what is in it. In music this is more pronounced.
>> Suppose there is a person who admires and enjoys what is admitted to be
>> good but can't remember the simplest tunes, doesn't know when the bass
>> comes in, etc. We say he hasn't seen what's in it. We use the phrase 'A man
>> is musical' not so as to call a man musical if he says "Ah!" when a piece
>> of music is played, any more than we call a dog musical if it wags its tail
>> when music is played.
>
>
> If there is a paradigm shift that is required, it is an epistemological
> shift that is in this space.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 at 11:26, Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Chen and FIS colleagues,
>>
>> Welcome to the list. Your comments on the "main body" are interesting.
>> They look close to the (Taoist?) tradition of "*chi flow*" in the body.
>> The interrelation between the* li *and the *chi* in the organism looks
>> quite enigmatic (say, information flow vs. energy flow: time ago I
>> published about that from the point of view of cellular gauge symmetry).
>> This interesting "main body" theme may also be connected with the
>> discussions on consciousness... Nevertheless, I fail to see the
>> relationship with "wisdom". Most parties in this list are discussing about
>> wisdom from a "realist stance" (as something clearly delimited in the real
>> world) while I adopt a "nominalist" position: it represents nothing but a
>> useful artificial convention about an unassailable phenomenon.
>> Nevertheless, in our times whatever wisdom might be around remains buried
>> under growing heaps of specialized, mostly technological knowledge. Taking
>> its evanescent presence as a crucial distinction between humans and the new
>> AI systems does not look very "wise"...  If we provide full Autonomy and
>> maybe some form of embodiment (robotic?) to these systems, well, things
>> could be pretty problematic, far beyond the realistic or nominalist stance
>> around wisdom.
>>
>> Best--Pedro
>>
>> BY THE WAY, THERE ARE AT LEAST 6 MESSAGES BLOCKED BY THE SERVER DUE TO
>> THEIR EXCESSIVE LENGTH, BEYOND THE LIMIT OF 300 K. SO DIFFICULT IS CLEANING
>> THE "TAIL" OF PREVIOUS MESSAGES (OR AT LEAST A PART OF THEM)????  ADMIRABLE
>> STUBBORNNESS OF SOME FIS COLLEAGUES!
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> El 30/10/2023 a las 2:13, shda1 escribió:
>>
>> Dear everyone,
>> Sorry! I encountered a formatting error in my reply yesterday and will
>> resend it today.
>>
>> I am delighted that everyone can discuss wisdom from artificial
>> intelligence. Here, I propose a more basic and core concept about wisdom -
>> the main body, which is the fundamental concept of wisdom.
>> The main body, also known as the main body program, is a high-level
>> program combination of energy. The the main body needs to combine with the
>> organism in order to exist and form a main body existence. Main body
>> existence is an existence with autonomy and initiative, and the extension
>> of main body is greater than that of the living body. The living body is
>> only a common type of main body existence. AI has no main body, so no
>> matter how powerful it may be, it does not belong to the main body
>> existence and can only be an appendage of the living body. So, is there a
>> possibility that AI will also break through itself and gain the main body?
>> Never possible! The main body is a product of natural evolution in the
>> universe, which humans cannot manufacture and can only use reasonably. Chen
>> Wang Visiting Professor at SEGD University New Civilization International
>> Cooperation Organization
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 2023-10-29 21:39:54, "" <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> <fis-request at listas.unizar.es> wrote:
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>> >   1. PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Plamen)
>> >   2. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Eric Werner)
>> >   3. Re: PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?. (Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov)
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >Message: 1
>> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 13:26:22 +0100
>> >From: Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com> <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>
>> >To: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> >Subject: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>> >Message-ID: <8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED at gmail.com> <8BA2DCA1-27E6-4F2D-BA86-086716AA2AED at gmail.com>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >
>> >https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$
>> >
>> >
>> >Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------
>> >
>> >Message: 2
>> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2023 14:16:40 +0100
>> >From: Eric Werner <eric.werner at oarf.org> <eric.werner at oarf.org>
>> >To: Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com> <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es> <fis at listas.unizar.es>
>> >Subject: Re: [Fis] PTSD: AI biases absorbed by humans?.
>> >Message-ID: <e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc at oarf.org> <e6736449-2532-442e-b6d9-32e19024eafc at oarf.org>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>> >
>> >Dear Plamen,
>> >
>> >Fully agree that such systems can have bias and that this bias can
>> >infect humans. However, one person's bias is another's truth. All the
>> >experiment showed was the heritability of bias from AI system to human.?
>> >That is a problem.
>> >
>> >However, in a political setting one would have to very cautious when
>> >larger corporations and governments start to determine what is bias and
>> >what is not. '
>> >
>> >How to avoid "bias" will I think be an impossible task.
>> >
>> >Best wishes,
>> >
>> >Eric
>> >
>> >On 10/29/23 1:26 PM, Plamen wrote:
>> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www-scientificamerican-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-absorb-bias-from-ai-and-keep-it-after-they-stop-using-the-algorithm/?amp=true__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!SHUUOa4B0F9kxK2vjy8cLrhqjUToq5OW3Hg5CAyMsxtzWQVAGmOy6WQe2zDxR30Y8IisMW5zooatI8r__i5cvhJUWN0N$
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Dr. Mark William Johnson
> Faculty of Biology, Medicine and Health
> University of Manchester
>
> Department of Science Education
> University of Copenhagen
>
> Department of Eye and Vision Science (honorary)
> University of Liverpool
> Phone: 07786 064505
> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
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