[Fis] Fwd: Re: emotions

joe.brenner at bluewin.ch joe.brenner at bluewin.ch
Fri Mar 17 09:04:05 CET 2023

Dear All,
I agree with the previous notes that emotions are indeed a most appropriate subject for discussion from an informational perspective. Emotions are dynamic, complex systems characterized by change. There are no "pure" emotions. They have both vector (warmth) and scalar (oomph) components.
Whether Konstantin's "uniform" terms are either desirable or possible is for me an open question.
----Original Message----
>From : lidinkl at hotmail.com
Date : 17/03/2023 - 08:09 (E)
To : pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com, fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject : Re: [Fis] emotions
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  Dear Pedro, 
  dear colleagues,
  thank you for this new turn in the discussion.
  It seems to me that with all the variety of modern definitions and models of the emotional sphere, it is possible to trace the origin of each approach from the works of the founders of scientific psychology. One group of models is based on the philosophy of Sigmund Freud, which treats the psyche similarly to a mechanism. This approach seeks to isolate isolated fragments of the human soul, to determine their functional significance and their interaction with each other (psychoanalysis). The most consistent modern application of this approach in understanding emotions is Paul Ekman's model. His "six big ones" are competing "demons" that control a person's condition and behavior from inside his head and constantly fight for power.
  The second approach is based on the philosophy of Wilhelm Wundt and considers a person as a stream of states. This is a continual model, according to which the psyche cannot be divided into separate fragments. Today we call such systems "holographic". Continual models are less popular in the modern science of emotions. For example, the Yaak Panskepp's model is also based on analysis, that is, on the identification of discrete mechanisms (emotional systems) based on affective neurology. 
  Personally, I am closer to those models that seek to show the unity and mutual conditionality of phenomena. The division into men and women, people and animals, natural and artificial and so on is an analytical path that has already exhausted its potential in many ways. I think it's time to focus on the ideas of the unity of the world and the psyche. We need models that explore the similarities (not differences) of information processes in different people, animals, plants, biocenoses and computer systems. We need an approach that will allow us to describe in uniform terms the processes in a living organism, in the psyche of the individual and society, in economics, in art and urbanism. We've worked hard enough casting away stones. Now it's time to gather.
  All the best,
 From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
Sent: 16 March 2023 21:22
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
  Dear Konstantin,
  Many thanks for your previous responses. I appreciate having heard about Wilhelm Wundt's approach to emotions, who rarely appears in the current literature. Not being a practicing researcher in this field I have being relying on recent literature (Ekman, Feldman, Damasio...), rather dissatisfying for may taste. Perhaps Panksepp, given his meaningful biological connections, is the most interesting for me. I am trying to connect emotions with the biological information flow as realized in the cell's life-cycle, on the one side, and in the other side with "sentiment analysis" in artificial intelligence (following the work of my long-term collaborator Jorge Navarro--Jorge, are you around??). So, perhaps we are not too far from your own concerns. In the field of sentiment analysis, very important for all those companies monetizing Internet activities (steeling our "cookies" or manipulating in the new social networks), I have also found a rather primitive concept of emotions, basically those "6 big" of Ekman or a few more. It is a very important problem, I think. There is a beautiful quotation from philosopher Ortega y Gasset abou that, which I will leave for next exchanges.
  Somehow, the above connects with your sentence below "
  Emotions don't make us human, but emotions make us alive." I agree in the second part of the sentence. In my opinion,  the virtual "body of emotions" is substantially reorganized in each species and along its ontogenetic development, and of course it depends on gender too (what was called "sex" before the woke cultural mutation). Therefore, human emotions would make us human, and wolf emotions would make them Canis lupus. Using a computer metaphor, emotions "software" would have evolved in accordance with the rest of the bodily "hardware", both making possible the advancement of a particular life story in the evolutionary niche. 
  In daily life terms, forgetting how cultures mingle in our emotional development, 
  how similar 
  are man and women emotions?  
   Also, how similar are the emotions of our pets to our own? 
   People lacking a minimum of emotional background, we call them "inhuman"
  Best regards,
    El 13/03/2023 a las 12:25, konstantin lidin escribió:
Dear Pedro, 
dear colleagues, 
I continue to answer the questions listed in Pedro's letter. 
2. information flows of zettabyte intensity are inherent not only to humans. A large amount of information per unit of substance is a characteristic feature of the living compared to the inanimate. Emotions don't make us human, but emotions make us alive. 
Regarding the individual "pattern" of emotions, I would like to add the following:  
if we add a third dimension to the two axes of the Cartesian plane, then we will have the opportunity to depict the individual characteristics of the emotional sphere of the personality. The third dimension is valence (attractiveness) - the subjective (individual) experience of emotions by a person. In three-dimensional space, we get a certain figure or relief, unique for each individual. This relief is also subject to changes over time. For example, a healthy and normally developing child experiences maximum pleasure from experiencing the emotions of the "interest" group. But with age, traumas and crises can shift the point of maximum valence to other areas of the "space of emotions". 
Emotions that have the maximum valence for a particular person are called "genuine happiness (felicitas)" of that person. 
An example of an individual relief is shown in the figure: 
Unfortunately, I don't have enough data to draw conclusions about the prevalence of certain types of genuine happiness (felicitas). Some indication on this score can be obtained by analyzing the volumes of markets on which certain emotions are sold. 
An approximate analysis is shown in Figure 2: 
Of course, the volume of sales of emotions is influenced not only by individual preferences, but also by fashion, advertising and other types of social pressure on the individual. 
   From: Fis  <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Pedro C. Marijuán  <pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com>
Sent: 11 March 2023 20:52
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
    Dear Konstantin and FIS Colleagues,
    Thanks a lot for all the ideas in your initial texts and in the responses. I would like to receive some further comments in a few  issues (better if you take some time and different days to answer--also to attract other parties to the reflection).
    First, the James Russell's "circumplex model" (1980). That Cartesian diagram of emotions you present is an interesting variant of what he published involving "arousal" and "valence" as main coordinates. There has been quite a few development and changes thereafter, with another relevant graphic model by Robert Plutchik (also in 1980!) known as the "emotion wheel", interesting to discuss the combinatoric of emotions. Unfortunately much of the later research has gone to describe more and more emotion lists, larger and larger ones. So, it is very interesting to see your causal model related to the info flow. Although some reference to the Connectome and the role of the different areas could also be interesting (not only the synapse) to enlarge the panorama.
    Second, about the life cycle. If emotions are what makes us human (which I agree), we would see an ontogenetic development of the emotional panoply, according to age, gender, and personality, and also with cultural modifications or channeling in the expression of emotions. This should affect, I think, the configuration of that Cartesian diagram. And in this aspect the difference between sentiments and emotions has to be clarified regarding also their "permanence" in time. 
    Third, the relationship with rationality. Reminding System1 and System2 reaction types described by Kahneman, there could be an interesting connection with our "identity", guarded by emotions as a sort of behavioral "immune system" that tries to preserve our fitness. So, System 1 works as an emotional system that helps to preserve our immediate maintenance in time, in an innate way (like the innate branch of our immune system), later on complemented by System 2 "adaptive" mass of experiential learning and rationality. In this link with identity, maybe the ideas of Sheri Markose and Lou Kauffman could dovetail here. 
    And fourth, I am very interested in your application to urbanism (and other related aspects) and in general concerning the essential role of emotions in our daily life. In particular, the connection with urbanism has never been discussed in our list.
    Thanks again for your stimulating views (I leave the discussion on information metrics & dynamics for further exchanges).
    El 02/03/2023 a las 14:55, konstantin lidin escribió:
       Thank you, Howard. 
       You are absolutely right, emotions are a powerful tool for understanding a person and the world. Unfortunately, they are very little studied (much less than cognitions) and mostly remain in the realm of the unconscious. The concept of "emotional intelligence" is often found in the scientific literature, but it most often means only the skill of recognizing basic emotions by the facial expression of the interlocutor. Obviously, this is absolutely not enough. As a result, emotions are often perceived as some kind of "demons" that prevent a person from thinking clearly and acting rationally, and from which it is desirable to get rid of altogether.
       This is very strange and inconvenient, especially considering the huge role that emotions play in people's behavior and in the economy. We rarely realize how much the price of emotions occupies in the consumer price of our everyday purchases. Here is an illustration - the price of coffee in its "natural" form, then the price of coffee preparation services, and then the price with the addition of prestige emotions (a fashion brand brings valuable emotions from the "joy - pride" group).
       In our daily life, spending on emotions accounts for about 90% of all expenses, and the richer the country, the greater this share
     From: Howard Bloom  <howlbloom at aol.com>
Sent: 02 March 2023 09:29
To: lidinkl at hotmail.com <lidinkl at hotmail.com>;  13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>;  roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
       excellent point on the importance of emotions.  and on the commercial sale of emotions. 
       i suspect that emotions are our fastest form of information processing.  in other words, they have a wisdom of their own.
       with warmth and oomph--howard
        -----Original Message-----
 From: konstantin lidin  <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
 To: Francesco Rizzo  <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
 Cc:  fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison  <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
 Sent: Wed, Mar 1, 2023 1:53 pm
 Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
             Dear Francesco, 
              indeed, it is difficult to understand such difficult ideas from such a brief message.
             For my part, I can add that emotions are a very popular commodity. For example, tourism is the sale of emotions of the "interest" group. Gambling is an industry of emotions of the group "excitement, risk". Cinema produces and sells emotions of a wide range, from "joy - pride" (comedies, family films) to "disgust" (horror and punk films), and so on. All these are market sectors with a turnover of hundreds of billions of USD per year.
             Note also that positive emotions (for example, such a kind of "joy - pride" emotions as prestige) often make up a significant part of wages in some areas.
             Unfortunately, emotions are still not taken into account in most economic models.
             From: Francesco Rizzo  <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
Sent: 01 March 2023 23:49
To: konstantin lidin  <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Roy Morrison  <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
               Dear Konstantin, 
               I would like to make the following contribution: in my new economy it is not necessary to separate humanitarian information and natural information, since I adopt a single trans-information process based on the 3 surpluses or thermodynamic, genetic and semiotic-hermeneutic information; that is, a theory of value underlying a single piece of information, consisting in giving or taking shape, measurable in bits of entropy (in natural-rational information and in neg-entropy (in emotional-human communication). So that the flow of information related to emotion, can give rise to what I call emo-rationality. Thank you! Do I have to apologize for my (non) simplicity?Francesco
               Caro Konstantin, 
               desidero dare il seguente contributo: nella mia economia nuova non è necessario separare l'informazione 
               umanitaria e l'informazione naturale, poiché adotto un unico processo di tras-informazione basato sui 3 
               surplus o informazione termodinamica, genetica e  semiotico-ermeneutica; cioè una teoria del valore sottesa 
               da un'unica informazione, consistente nel dare o nel  prendere forma, misurabile in bit di entropia (nella 
               informazione natural-razionale e in neg-entropia (nella comu  nicazione emozional-umana). Sicchè il flusso di 
               informazioni connesse all'emozione, può dar luogo a quella che io chiamo emo-ra-zionalità. 
               Grazie! Dobbo scusarmi per la mia (non) sempicità?
               Il giorno mer 1 mar 2023 alle ore 09:11 konstantin lidin <
               lidinkl at hotmail.com> ha scritto:
                 the calculation of the amount of information contained in one human personality is based on the following considerations: 
                  the number of nitrogenous bases in a DNA molecule is 3.2 billion. Each base contains two bits of information. In total, the amount of information in one DNA molecule is about a gigabyte (10^9);
                  all cells of the human body are different and, therefore, the information in each cell does not coincide with the information in other cells. Therefore, the amount of information in the body needs to be multiplied by the number of cells - about 10 ^ 14;
                  the total is 10 ^ 23 bytes, that is, one hundred zettabytes. Even considering that 99% of cellular information is repeated, the amount of unique information in a living organism is zettabytes. It is the amount of information per unit of mass that is the fundamental difference between a living organism and an inanimate one.
                  Our model can be useful for the study of intrapsychic processes. Unfortunately, the format of a short message does not allow us to fully describe all the results obtained over twenty-five years of development of this model.
                  You are absolutely right; the human personality is complex enough that its individual fragments can experience different emotions at the same time. A person can simultaneously experience fear of a shark, tenderness and trust in it, sadness from his loneliness in the middle of an endless ocean, and so on.
                  The role of hormones and neurotransmitters in the movement of information through the nervous system has not been sufficiently studied.  The processes occurring in the synaptic cleft are associated with the adaptation of the nervous system to the nature of the flow of information. The balance of neurotransmitters in the synaptic cleft corresponds to the characteristics of the information flow - for example, adrenaline promotes the passage of chaotic flows (emotion "fear"), and gamma-aminobutyric acid "adjusts" the nervous system to weak information flows (sadness).
                  Rapid and strong changes in the balance of neurotransmitters correspond to "emotional storms", which is so characteristic of young poets...
                 From: Roy Morrison <roy.morrison114 at yahoo.com>
Sent: 01 March 2023 06:54
To: fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; konstantin lidin <lidinkl at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Fis] emotions
                   I powerful and important take on emotions as experience of information flow. 
                   Really appreciate "
                   In turn, we understand information as a structural aspect of the existence of matter, along with the inertial aspect (substance) and the dynamic aspect (energy). We believe that information is no less material than matter and energy. "
                   "The total amount of information contained on all media in all libraries, archives and other repositories of mankind is about a zettabyte (10^23 bits). About the same amount of information contains one human personality."
                       From my experience as a lunatic, ok as a neurotic, the complexity of emotion is complicated by issues of  what is conscious/ repressed/ unconscious.
                   Your model making distinctions between Order-Chaos and Weak flow- Intense Flow does not fully explain issues of unconscious roiling repression this is driven in part by hormonal emotional activation and repression. At the same time I recognize the common and shared emotional expression we share across species. 
                   Watching video of a fisherman who saved a great white shark trapped it nets. The shark keep returning to the fishman's small boat for days. Shark rolled on her? back next to his boat so he could spoke her belly to her great pleasure.Evolutionary we share  common emotional expression and the similar brain chemicals.
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