[Fis] THE ROOTS OF MODERN CIVILISATION
Pedro C. Marijuán
pedroc.marijuan at gmail.com
Mon Jan 30 20:21:34 CET 2023
Dear All,
Before the end of the Lecture I would like to come back to some early
comments by Dai.
El 07/01/2023 a las 23:40, Dai Griffiths escribió:
>
> Dear Plamen,
>
> I agree that it is important to recognise the value of monastic
> culture in the ‘dark ages’ and medieval period, and its continuing
> influence on Western culture. As you point out, in many ways the
> Catholic church is a continuation of the Roman Empire by other means
> (a man in a robe sits on a throne in Rome and issues commands).
>
As far as I know, after the fall of Rome the only significant urban
centers were in the Eastern part of the Empire, where all Conciliar and
Synod meetings were hold (Constantinople, Alexandria, Nicea etc.). Rome
became a small town of less than 30,000 people. The commands of the
"bishop of Rome" were almost insignificant, a little bit different than
those of the "Emperor of Rome". If we compare the respective structures,
it is clear that the Church was collegial, and not imperial.
>
> However, I am unconvinced that this is the entirely positive thing
> that you seem to suggest. Indeed, you mention that “Holland, France
> and England became colonial powers dominating the sea trade, yet at
> the price of slavery and exploiting the native population”, and
> slavery was certainly an example set by the Roman Empire. More
> generally, the Roman Empire was built on central authority and power,
> and the Catholic Church was constructed on these foundations, grafting
> them onto the decentralised and contemplative traditions of the early
> church.
>
The extension of Christianity was not by authority and power but by
preaching and examplarity, by support of the widows, protection of
matrimony, rejection of slavery and human sacrifices, etc. The opposite
was true, that after the Constantine edict, the Eastern power became too
entangled with Church structures, with negative influences in Western
church too --except for the genial idea of Egyptian monasteries
transplanted to the West.
>
> Intuitively, most people within traditionally Christian countries
> assume, with Pelagius (c. 354–418), that you get into heaven by doing
> good things. But this is not compatible with an imperial church, as
> you no longer need priests to achieve salvation, and hence have no
> authority or power over the population. Augustine succeeded in winning
> the argument with Pelagius, and establishing the doctrine of original
> sin, which can only be overcome through the grace of God, which is
> transmitted through priests. Hence infants need to be baptised to
> avoid being condemned to purgatory until the second coming. This is
> the doctrinal mechanism whereby imperial authority was maintained by
> the church. Unsurprisingly, Pelagius was condemned as a heretic. It is
> worth meditating on this a little: “If you live a good life you go to
> heaven” is heretical to the Catholic Church. I certainly find the
> implications to be horrendous.
>
> As a Welsh person, I am aware of Pelagius because he was a Celt
> (Wales, Ireland and Brittany compete for the honour or infamy of being
> his birthplace). The Celtic church was monastic (think of the Book of
> Kells), and in Wales it was a direct continuation of the Roman church
> in Roman occupied Britain. The Welsh church maintained a
> decentralised, Pelagian tradition until the annexation of Wales by the
> English in 1534. So there is nothing inevitable about the imperial
> nature of the church.
>
Pelagius lived in Jerusalem, Egypt and other places. He considered
himself "orthodox", and won in some of the synods were his ideas were
debated. Finally lost and wen to Egypt... Horrendous implications of his
defeat??? Along the many centuries of Church life, there were dozens and
dozens of other heresies. Most of them, like Pelagius, had some point
of reason. For instance, I have always had respect (and some admiration)
for the Cathar-Albigense movement of XIII Century. For our contemporary
standards they were most advanced: culturally (troubadour culture),
feminism (many female leaders), ecologists/naturalists (cults to
nature), pacifists (anti-violence) and anti-bureaucratic. Why they were
wiped out concerns mostly to politics--the ambitions of the king of
France against the Languedoc counties too close to Aragon kingdom (our
king Pedro el católico, was actually killed in battle of Muret while he
defended his "heretic" subjects against the French crusades). What if
this movement had triumphed? Maybe, like you imply about Pelagius, I am
concerned with the cavalier involvement of Aragonese king and the very
bad consequences for this particular kingdom and in general: religious,
political, cultural... But any historic counterfactual in these matters
becomes futile. The eagerness to attack medieval Christianity often is
just a retrospective projection of modern ideologies.
>
> In 1276 Ramon Llull established a monastic school in Mallorca, five
> kilometres from where I am typing these words (see
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Contributions/article/download/95275/411648__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T-VW5t12ax_SXH0wwMR57bJ8n1pDdq8CcB4ERW412HYbphfqfw8scap9-XH32QKglf1U9V1J1xHempwR7snvgj0JKEdQ$
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.raco.cat/index.php/Contributions/article/download/95275/411648__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!Q0Q_sSUonrpENMyx1ZxV7Z8SpySpGHhSUUeHKZ-ElQjJ_BruzkJxFyJuqlIrOetPYzS054VTEeRHay1ody4PzhdXOVcV$>).
> There, the students (Franciscan Minors) studied Arabic, and I believe
> also Greek and Hebrew, in line with Llull’s belief that the three
> ‘peoples of the book’ (Christians, Muslims and Jews) could be
> reconciled through learning and logical discourse. For his efforts
> Llull was excommunicated by the church, and conversion in Christianity
> and Islam remained linked to imperial conquest. Current events in
> Israel, Nigeria, and other countries are illustrating the consequences
> of failing to attend to his vision. In our time I have found Karen
> Armstrong’s writing valuable in underlining the common foundations of
> the major religions.
>
You are wrong in some points. Lull was highly appreciated and lavishly
funded by the Aragonese kingdom in Mallorca and by several popes. His
emphasis in preaching and in the learning of oriental languages widely
succeeded when the Council of Vienna in 1311, during his life, ordered
the creation of chairs in Hebrew, Arabic, and Chaldean (Aramaic) in the
major European universities. Lull's scientific works were really
immense, covering most realms of knowledge and highly influential. He
was indeed a very tough person; seemingly he died due to his resolution
to convert Islam by preaching, being stoned (to death?) in Tunisia,
1315. After his death, an envious Catalan inquisidor (Nicolas Aymerich)
and a French author, Jean Gerson, found contradictions with Thomas
Aquinas works. For some time, some of his writings were interdicted,
though the king of Aragon violently expelled the Catalan inquisidor and
the interdiction was ignored. Cardinal Cisneros was Lullist, as was
Philip the Second and many other intellectuals of the time. And soon he
became "beatus for popular cult" but the started official beatification
process was interrupted for a long time. Amazingly, Lull finally won
upon the "angelical doctor" and his beatification was completed.
>
> I believe these examples help us “recognize the patterns that let us
> down before and now” which you mention. They help us consider how the
> Christian church in general, and monasticism in particular, could have
> evolved if Christianity had not taken on the trappings and political
> imperatives of the Roman Empire. The benefits of monasticism which you
> describe could still have been achieved, and perhaps we could have
> sidestepped some of the most noxious manifestations of authoritarian
> social structures and the “clash of civilizations”.
>
We do not know... it is too risky to link with the "clash of
civilizations" on the grounds that Christianity was taken on the
trappings and political imperatives of the Roman Empire. Perhaps the
Enlightenment was a little bit concerned too.
Rodney Stark is one of the most authoritative sociologists and
historians of religion. He is (was, as he unfortunately died recently)
an evangelist, but as he says "I did not write this book in defense of
the Church. I wrote it in defense of history. " The book is: "Bearing
False Witness: Debunking Centuries of Anti-Catholic History". Templeton
Press, 2016. It s reading is highly recommended.
All the best,
--Pedro
> _______________________________________________
>
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es <mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> <http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis>
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo
> gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos
> en el siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> <https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas>
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede
> darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo
> desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es <http://listas.unizar.es>
> ----------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace:https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
--
Este correo electrónico ha sido analizado en busca de virus por el software antivirus de Avast.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.avast.com__;!!D9dNQwwGXtA!T-VW5t12ax_SXH0wwMR57bJ8n1pDdq8CcB4ERW412HYbphfqfw8scap9-XH32QKglf1U9V1J1xHempwR7snvgs2Y8Yxe$
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20230130/88d93063/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Fis
mailing list