[Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion

[Karl Javorszky]

Dear Andrei and Colleagues,


Thank you for summarizing last week's discussion. Please allow me to draw
your attention to the fact that I have also contributed, twice, to those
proceedings.

So, *for the record, *let me summarize what I have tried to bring to your
attention.


*1.     **Epistemological, meta-communicational differences*

To me, the process of our non-dialogue has stark similarities to how I
imagine the process *Holy Congregation vs. Galileo Galilei* to have taken
place. The two sides have absolutely no common ground and consider each
other to be subject to irrational phantasmagories.

The similarities cover also:

a.      Your side has tradition, publicity, establishment on its side,

b.     My side is an individual with no backing from establishment figures.

You can refer to the community of Cardinals giving a reasoned judgement
reinforcing each other’s opinion by referring to each other’s valuable and
much-renowned publications in the most respected journals, books and at
conferences. I can only point to e.g. Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps
and De Ordinibus Naturalibus.


*2.     **What you need to understand*

 In the present discussion about *Biological **Mathematics, *the only
person who has anything to do with Biology is me. With all due respect,
this is again comparable to* Cardinals vs Galileo *insofar as none of the
Cardinals has ever looked thru a telescope. None of you have ever dealt
with anankastic syndrome, manic-depressive processes, dysthymia, or surges
of urges. These observations are highly educative, as educative as seeing
the moons of Jupiter.

If you want to understand how Biology functions and model that what you
observe, you have to learn some basic concepts, which I can teach you. The
situation is completely different to how you see it: not you are in the
know and I talk about stuff I have no idea about, but rather you are
completely out of your depth and have no idea about what you pontificate
about, this made worse by you believing that you are the champions, because
you congratulate each other how well you are making progress. If you are
not ready to learn, you will never understand (said Galileo to the
Cardinals).


3.      *Basics to learn*

It takes about 7 years to get a PhD in Psychology. Zero chances of
instructing you how to approach *Biologic Mathematics. * For a start, let
me tell you two of the most fundamental principles, to help you avoid the
most horrible nonsense. These principles are: thresholds and individuality
of symbols.


4.     *Eddington and the 136 ~ 137 upper limit*

This guy Eddington must have been a real genius. How he figured out the
upper limit of consistent assemblies without having any idea about the
mathematics behind it is truly marvelous. Fact is that he did, even though
he could not withstand the pressure of his ignorant contemporaries and
avoided stating loud and clear that the *essence of the idea of a threshold
is that it is impossible to keep on counting above a threshold, because the
results of the counting become self-contradictory. *

We imagine an assembly made up *n *parts which assembly is consistent and
coherent, that is: in which the parts have relations among each other. It
is self-evident that this assembly can contain only a limited number of
parts (otherwise we had an infinite number of relations among objects,
which is evidently not the case, see e.g. that not every object is subject
to magnetism).

If Eddington had been able to use the terms *‘foreground – background’
*and *‘similarity
– diversity’, *he would have established that there are differently many
similarity relations observable on a background of diversity than there are
diversity relations observable on a background of similarity. Using these
concepts, he would have entered *A242615 *into *www.oeis.org
<http://www.oeis.org>. *

 Reading the relations published in *A242615 *one understands that *Δ**  (
f1(n), f2(n) ) > **Δ** ( f(n+1), f(n) ) for n > Limit, *where the term *Limit
*refers to *n = 136 *in one case and to *n = 137 *in the other case. This
is not that complicated to understand, one needs only to look at the
numbers (but one needs to look at the numbers, in order to understand the
Eddington threshold).

In Biology, one hits thresholds right and left, the whole contraption would
not work without the existence, contributions of thresholds.

You must use a kind of Mathematics that is full of thresholds, in order to
be able to create a picture of how Biology works. Otherwise, you are as
lost as the Cardinals discussing with Galileo.


5.     *Individuated symbols*

Below the threshold, the action takes place. For historical reasons (and
for the fact of not having computers at their disposal), the Founding
Fathers of Mathematics have simplified the task of counting by declaring
the symbols one conducts counting on to be *non-distinguishable,
non-individual, all similar in all respects. *

This is a time-honored tradition, like the Teachings of the Prophets, First
Disciples, Founding Fathers in the case of the Cardinals. It is downright
heretic to suggest that symbols should be distinguished among each other,
and one plays with his life if one suggests to the Cardinals that they
should move their purple-clothed bodies and actually look at what the
experiments show: in the case of Galileo, be so revolutionary and heretic
as to look thru a telescope, in my case to be so revolutionary and heretic
as to take some few (any number above say 21 should do, needs not be more
than 136) symbols (assembled from *a,b; a,b **≤** 16; a **≤ b), *sort them
in any order and then resort them in a different order. The exercise should
open your eyes like the exercise of looking thru the telescope would have
opened the eyes of those Cardinals. As fat a chance of you being conductive
to pledges to reason as there was in the case then, one may bet. If one is
a Cardinal, one will not lower himself to observations of experiments, one
is secure enough in the knowledge that the other Cardinals are supportive
of one’s convictions.


*6.     **Summary*

This addition to the summary of last week's discussions is *for the record.
*Whatever happens, future historians will know that *you have been told.*



Am Do., 30. Juni 2022 um 05:15 Uhr schrieb Nikita Shklovskiy <
nikitashk en gmail.com>:

> Thanks! GREAT!
>
> Чт, 30 июня 2022 г. в 04:21, Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com
> >:
>
>> Dear Plamen, Koichiro and All,
>> Thank you Plamen for your important messages. I think, the Heisenberg
>> uncertainty ratio "energy-time" can be named, in relation to the internal
>> measurement and following Liberman's principle of "minimum price of
>> action", as the principle of "precision of action". It can be considered as
>> a sub-principle of the first principle and in biological computation it
>> determines the balance between the precision of action and its duration. It
>> can be the basis of optimality in biosystems that determines the choice
>> between the fast and less precise reaction and slow and highly precise. All
>> this is controlled through the achievement of maximum efficiency of the
>> system in concrete conditions (environment, etc.). Long conformational
>> relaxation of macromolecules corresponds to holding coherent state and
>> providing the precision of the output. This is the model of quantum
>> non-demolition (QND) measurement, which corresponds to the internal
>> measurement with a high precision. The sensitivity of detector is
>> determined by its relaxation properties. The QND measurements are
>> characterized by low energy dissipation and provide the basis for quantum
>> computation in biosystems. Actual energy dissipation in the course of
>> measurement proceeds by emitting quanta carrying energy E at the time
>> interval t. Calculation of this energy was done, e.g., in the paper of
>> Matsuno and Paton (2000). Thus, these ideas can be experimentally
>> verified.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Andrei
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* June 26, 2022 10:12 AM
>> *To:* Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 en nifty.com>
>> *Cc:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>; Gordana Dodig
>> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>; Nikita Shklovsky <
>> nikitashk en gmail.com>; joe.brenner en bluewin.ch <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>;
>> fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion
>>
>> This is an interesting idea I like, Koichiro and Andrei.
>> Are there any other (anticipated) forms of biocomputation languages
>> beyond the symbolical and indexing ones that can get mixed up at a later
>> point in time? I think we should keep in mind Gödel‘s inheritance avoid
>> repeating Hilbert‘s mistake, which is a biological one at its core.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 en nifty.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM, Andrei Igamberdiev
>> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com wrote;
>>
>> I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time”
>> can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing
>> devices in living systems
>>
>>
>>
>> Quantum mechanics has been an attempt for preventing us from falling into
>> a helpless abyss in case symbolical and indexical languages simply got
>> mixed up. QM regulation integrating both the symbolical and indexical,
>> e.g., conservation laws and measurements, as epitomized in the uncertainty
>> relation, is an instance of quantum computation, and relevant to biology
>> also.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Best,
>>
>>   Koichiro
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM
>> *To:* Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>;
>> Nikita Shklovsky <nikitashk en gmail.com>; Koichiro Matsuno <
>> cxq02365 en nifty.com>; joe.brenner en bluewin.ch; fis en listas.unizar.es
>> *Subject:* Re: Summarising this weeks discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Gordana, Joseph, Koichiro and Nikita,
>>
>> In my opinion, the exchange between Joseph and Koichiro regarding the
>> transitions between the potential and the actual is very important as this
>> is the point where we can approach closer to the nature of macromolecular
>> (and biological) computation. The whole process of computation is directly
>> related to the aspects of “potentiality in reality”. The advanced systems
>> that developed complex behavior are able to hold the potential for a
>> prolonged time to make precise outputs based on the choice of particular
>> result that help the system to navigate in the external world. This means
>> that such holding the potential corresponds to the abstracting capacity,
>> which was clarified in recent papers of Koichiro. This also corresponds to
>> the duality of actual entity and of abstract entity in the philosophy of
>> A.N. Whitehead.
>>
>> Many years ago, in my first paper of BioSystems (1993) I suggested the
>> idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the
>> precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living
>> systems in a way that the prolonged time of quantum measurement corresponds
>> to the minimum dissipation of energy in it, i.e. to the precise result and
>> thus represents the basis of natural computation performed by
>> macromolecular devices.  These devices operate as molecular automata of the
>> extremal quantum computer, and their set maintains highly ordered robust
>> coherent state, which precisely directs actualizations in the course of
>> natural computational process. During this process, single events
>> corresponding to realization of interacting individual programs form a
>> percolating network, and this leads to concrete spatial patterns
>> constructed using optimal coordinate scales.
>>
>> I am confident that this concept has a potential for development, and it
>> is grounded in the ideas expressed by Efim Liberman in his conceptual
>> approach to natural computation. Several concrete aspects of the quantum
>> biological computation were outlined in the works of Koichiro Matsuno,
>> including the estimation of actual energy dissipation in the course of
>> measurement accompanied by emitting quanta, each carrying energy E at every
>> time interval τ (Matsuno and Paton, 2000, BioSystems 55: 39-46). The works
>> of Yukio Gunji, of Andrei Khrennikov, also earlier works of Howard Pattee
>> and others, are particularly important in this development, although we are
>> still at the beginning of this important paradigm of the “new science”.  In
>> this development, the paradigm of the new science will incorporate the
>> ideas of relational biology formulated by Robert Rosen, which will result
>> in overcoming their too abstract original representation.  Summarizing, I
>> would say that we have all prerequisites for the concept of natural
>> computation that can be applied to the real world, and the logic of
>> potentiality in reality is in the core of this paradigm. The real world is *tantot
>> libre, tantot recherché *(Beethoven words), and this is a pledge of
>> freedom, which is the basis of the existence of the world and its
>> evolution.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Andrei
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis en listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
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>> siguiente enlace:
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>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
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>> ----------
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* June 26, 2022 10:12 AM
>> *To:* Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 en nifty.com>
>> *Cc:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>; Gordana Dodig
>> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>; Nikita Shklovsky <
>> nikitashk en gmail.com>; joe.brenner en bluewin.ch <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>;
>> fis en listas.unizar.es <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion
>>
>> This is an interesting idea I like, Koichiro and Andrei.
>> Are there any other (anticipated) forms of biocomputation languages
>> beyond the symbolical and indexing ones that can get mixed up at a later
>> point in time? I think we should keep in mind Gödel‘s inheritance avoid
>> repeating Hilbert‘s mistake, which is a biological one at its core.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 en nifty.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM, Andrei Igamberdiev
>> a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com wrote;
>>
>> I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time”
>> can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing
>> devices in living systems
>>
>>
>>
>> Quantum mechanics has been an attempt for preventing us from falling into
>> a helpless abyss in case symbolical and indexical languages simply got
>> mixed up. QM regulation integrating both the symbolical and indexical,
>> e.g., conservation laws and measurements, as epitomized in the uncertainty
>> relation, is an instance of quantum computation, and relevant to biology
>> also.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Best,
>>
>>   Koichiro
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev en hotmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM
>> *To:* Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en chalmers.se>;
>> Nikita Shklovsky <nikitashk en gmail.com>; Koichiro Matsuno <
>> cxq02365 en nifty.com>; joe.brenner en bluewin.ch; fis en listas.unizar.es
>> *Subject:* Re: Summarising this weeks discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Gordana, Joseph, Koichiro and Nikita,
>>
>> In my opinion, the exchange between Joseph and Koichiro regarding the
>> transitions between the potential and the actual is very important as this
>> is the point where we can approach closer to the nature of macromolecular
>> (and biological) computation. The whole process of computation is directly
>> related to the aspects of “potentiality in reality”. The advanced systems
>> that developed complex behavior are able to hold the potential for a
>> prolonged time to make precise outputs based on the choice of particular
>> result that help the system to navigate in the external world. This means
>> that such holding the potential corresponds to the abstracting capacity,
>> which was clarified in recent papers of Koichiro. This also corresponds to
>> the duality of actual entity and of abstract entity in the philosophy of
>> A.N. Whitehead.
>>
>> Many years ago, in my first paper of BioSystems (1993) I suggested the
>> idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the
>> precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living
>> systems in a way that the prolonged time of quantum measurement corresponds
>> to the minimum dissipation of energy in it, i.e. to the precise result and
>> thus represents the basis of natural computation performed by
>> macromolecular devices.  These devices operate as molecular automata of the
>> extremal quantum computer, and their set maintains highly ordered robust
>> coherent state, which precisely directs actualizations in the course of
>> natural computational process. During this process, single events
>> corresponding to realization of interacting individual programs form a
>> percolating network, and this leads to concrete spatial patterns
>> constructed using optimal coordinate scales.
>>
>> I am confident that this concept has a potential for development, and it
>> is grounded in the ideas expressed by Efim Liberman in his conceptual
>> approach to natural computation. Several concrete aspects of the quantum
>> biological computation were outlined in the works of Koichiro Matsuno,
>> including the estimation of actual energy dissipation in the course of
>> measurement accompanied by emitting quanta, each carrying energy E at every
>> time interval τ (Matsuno and Paton, 2000, BioSystems 55: 39-46). The works
>> of Yukio Gunji, of Andrei Khrennikov, also earlier works of Howard Pattee
>> and others, are particularly important in this development, although we are
>> still at the beginning of this important paradigm of the “new science”.  In
>> this development, the paradigm of the new science will incorporate the
>> ideas of relational biology formulated by Robert Rosen, which will result
>> in overcoming their too abstract original representation.  Summarizing, I
>> would say that we have all prerequisites for the concept of natural
>> computation that can be applied to the real world, and the logic of
>> potentiality in reality is in the core of this paradigm. The real world is *tantot
>> libre, tantot recherché *(Beethoven words), and this is a pledge of
>> freedom, which is the basis of the existence of the world and its
>> evolution.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Andrei
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Fis mailing list
>> Fis en listas.unizar.es
>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>> siguiente enlace:
>> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
>> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
>> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
>> http://listas.unizar.es
>> ----------
>>
>> --
> Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
> Гематологический центр.
> WWW.AI-VOROBIEV.RU  -  сайт  Андрея Ивановича Воробьева
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
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> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
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> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
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