[Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion

Thu Jun 30 05:14:32 CEST 2022

Thanks! GREAT!

Чт, 30 июня 2022 г. в 04:21, Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com>:

> Dear Plamen, Koichiro and All,
> Thank you Plamen for your important messages. I think, the Heisenberg
> uncertainty ratio "energy-time" can be named, in relation to the internal
> measurement and following Liberman's principle of "minimum price of
> action", as the principle of "precision of action". It can be considered as
> a sub-principle of the first principle and in biological computation it
> determines the balance between the precision of action and its duration. It
> can be the basis of optimality in biosystems that determines the choice
> between the fast and less precise reaction and slow and highly precise. All
> this is controlled through the achievement of maximum efficiency of the
> system in concrete conditions (environment, etc.). Long conformational
> relaxation of macromolecules corresponds to holding coherent state and
> providing the precision of the output. This is the model of quantum
> non-demolition (QND) measurement, which corresponds to the internal
> measurement with a high precision. The sensitivity of detector is
> determined by its relaxation properties. The QND measurements are
> characterized by low energy dissipation and provide the basis for quantum
> computation in biosystems. Actual energy dissipation in the course of
> measurement proceeds by emitting quanta carrying energy E at the time
> interval t. Calculation of this energy was done, e.g., in the paper of
> Matsuno and Paton (2000). Thus, these ideas can be experimentally
> verified.
>
> All the best,
> Andrei
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* June 26, 2022 10:12 AM
> *To:* Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 at nifty.com>
> *Cc:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com>; Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Nikita Shklovsky <
> nikitashk at gmail.com>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>;
> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion
>
> This is an interesting idea I like, Koichiro and Andrei.
> Are there any other (anticipated) forms of biocomputation languages beyond
> the symbolical and indexing ones that can get mixed up at a later point in
> time? I think we should keep in mind Gödel‘s inheritance avoid repeating
> Hilbert‘s mistake, which is a biological one at its core.
>
> Best,
>
> Plamen
>
> On Jun 26, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 at nifty.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM, Andrei Igamberdiev
> a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com wrote;
>
> I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time”
> can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing
> devices in living systems
>
>
>
> Quantum mechanics has been an attempt for preventing us from falling into
> a helpless abyss in case symbolical and indexical languages simply got
> mixed up. QM regulation integrating both the symbolical and indexical,
> e.g., conservation laws and measurements, as epitomized in the uncertainty
> relation, is an instance of quantum computation, and relevant to biology
> also.
>
>
>
>   Best,
>
>   Koichiro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM
> *To:* Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Nikita
> Shklovsky <nikitashk at gmail.com>; Koichiro Matsuno <cxq02365 at nifty.com>;
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch; fis at listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* Re: Summarising this weeks discussion
>
>
>
> Dear Gordana, Joseph, Koichiro and Nikita,
>
> In my opinion, the exchange between Joseph and Koichiro regarding the
> transitions between the potential and the actual is very important as this
> is the point where we can approach closer to the nature of macromolecular
> (and biological) computation. The whole process of computation is directly
> related to the aspects of “potentiality in reality”. The advanced systems
> that developed complex behavior are able to hold the potential for a
> prolonged time to make precise outputs based on the choice of particular
> result that help the system to navigate in the external world. This means
> that such holding the potential corresponds to the abstracting capacity,
> which was clarified in recent papers of Koichiro. This also corresponds to
> the duality of actual entity and of abstract entity in the philosophy of
> A.N. Whitehead.
>
> Many years ago, in my first paper of BioSystems (1993) I suggested the
> idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the
> precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living
> systems in a way that the prolonged time of quantum measurement corresponds
> to the minimum dissipation of energy in it, i.e. to the precise result and
> thus represents the basis of natural computation performed by
> macromolecular devices.  These devices operate as molecular automata of the
> extremal quantum computer, and their set maintains highly ordered robust
> coherent state, which precisely directs actualizations in the course of
> natural computational process. During this process, single events
> corresponding to realization of interacting individual programs form a
> percolating network, and this leads to concrete spatial patterns
> constructed using optimal coordinate scales.
>
> I am confident that this concept has a potential for development, and it
> is grounded in the ideas expressed by Efim Liberman in his conceptual
> approach to natural computation. Several concrete aspects of the quantum
> biological computation were outlined in the works of Koichiro Matsuno,
> including the estimation of actual energy dissipation in the course of
> measurement accompanied by emitting quanta, each carrying energy E at every
> time interval τ (Matsuno and Paton, 2000, BioSystems 55: 39-46). The works
> of Yukio Gunji, of Andrei Khrennikov, also earlier works of Howard Pattee
> and others, are particularly important in this development, although we are
> still at the beginning of this important paradigm of the “new science”.  In
> this development, the paradigm of the new science will incorporate the
> ideas of relational biology formulated by Robert Rosen, which will result
> in overcoming their too abstract original representation.  Summarizing, I
> would say that we have all prerequisites for the concept of natural
> computation that can be applied to the real world, and the logic of
> potentiality in reality is in the core of this paradigm. The real world is *tantot
> libre, tantot recherché *(Beethoven words), and this is a pledge of
> freedom, which is the basis of the existence of the world and its
> evolution.
>
> All the best,
>
> Andrei
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
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> ----------
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* June 26, 2022 10:12 AM
> *To:* Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 at nifty.com>
> *Cc:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com>; Gordana Dodig
> Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Nikita Shklovsky <
> nikitashk at gmail.com>; joe.brenner at bluewin.ch <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>;
> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Summarising this weeks discussion
>
> This is an interesting idea I like, Koichiro and Andrei.
> Are there any other (anticipated) forms of biocomputation languages beyond
> the symbolical and indexing ones that can get mixed up at a later point in
> time? I think we should keep in mind Gödel‘s inheritance avoid repeating
> Hilbert‘s mistake, which is a biological one at its core.
>
> Best,
>
> Plamen
>
> On Jun 26, 2022, at 11:07 AM, Koichiro Matsuno <CXQ02365 at nifty.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM, Andrei Igamberdiev
> a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com wrote;
>
> I suggested the idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time”
> can explain the precision of operation of macromolecules as computing
> devices in living systems
>
>
>
> Quantum mechanics has been an attempt for preventing us from falling into
> a helpless abyss in case symbolical and indexical languages simply got
> mixed up. QM regulation integrating both the symbolical and indexical,
> e.g., conservation laws and measurements, as epitomized in the uncertainty
> relation, is an instance of quantum computation, and relevant to biology
> also.
>
>
>
>   Best,
>
>   Koichiro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrei Igamberdiev <a_igamberdiev at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 25, 2022 3:54 AM
> *To:* Gordana Dodig Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at chalmers.se>; Nikita
> Shklovsky <nikitashk at gmail.com>; Koichiro Matsuno <cxq02365 at nifty.com>;
> joe.brenner at bluewin.ch; fis at listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* Re: Summarising this weeks discussion
>
>
>
> Dear Gordana, Joseph, Koichiro and Nikita,
>
> In my opinion, the exchange between Joseph and Koichiro regarding the
> transitions between the potential and the actual is very important as this
> is the point where we can approach closer to the nature of macromolecular
> (and biological) computation. The whole process of computation is directly
> related to the aspects of “potentiality in reality”. The advanced systems
> that developed complex behavior are able to hold the potential for a
> prolonged time to make precise outputs based on the choice of particular
> result that help the system to navigate in the external world. This means
> that such holding the potential corresponds to the abstracting capacity,
> which was clarified in recent papers of Koichiro. This also corresponds to
> the duality of actual entity and of abstract entity in the philosophy of
> A.N. Whitehead.
>
> Many years ago, in my first paper of BioSystems (1993) I suggested the
> idea that the Heisenberg uncertainty ratio “energy-time” can explain the
> precision of operation of macromolecules as computing devices in living
> systems in a way that the prolonged time of quantum measurement corresponds
> to the minimum dissipation of energy in it, i.e. to the precise result and
> thus represents the basis of natural computation performed by
> macromolecular devices.  These devices operate as molecular automata of the
> extremal quantum computer, and their set maintains highly ordered robust
> coherent state, which precisely directs actualizations in the course of
> natural computational process. During this process, single events
> corresponding to realization of interacting individual programs form a
> percolating network, and this leads to concrete spatial patterns
> constructed using optimal coordinate scales.
>
> I am confident that this concept has a potential for development, and it
> is grounded in the ideas expressed by Efim Liberman in his conceptual
> approach to natural computation. Several concrete aspects of the quantum
> biological computation were outlined in the works of Koichiro Matsuno,
> including the estimation of actual energy dissipation in the course of
> measurement accompanied by emitting quanta, each carrying energy E at every
> time interval τ (Matsuno and Paton, 2000, BioSystems 55: 39-46). The works
> of Yukio Gunji, of Andrei Khrennikov, also earlier works of Howard Pattee
> and others, are particularly important in this development, although we are
> still at the beginning of this important paradigm of the “new science”.  In
> this development, the paradigm of the new science will incorporate the
> ideas of relational biology formulated by Robert Rosen, which will result
> in overcoming their too abstract original representation.  Summarizing, I
> would say that we have all prerequisites for the concept of natural
> computation that can be applied to the real world, and the logic of
> potentiality in reality is in the core of this paradigm. The real world is *tantot
> libre, tantot recherché *(Beethoven words), and this is a pledge of
> freedom, which is the basis of the existence of the world and its
> evolution.
>
> All the best,
>
> Andrei
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
> ----------
> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>
> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
> la Universidad de Zaragoza.
> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
> siguiente enlace:
> https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas
> Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de
> baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
> http://listas.unizar.es
> ----------
>
> --
Никита Ефимович Шкловский-Корди
Гематологический центр.
WWW.AI-VOROBIEV.RU  -  сайт  Андрея Ивановича Воробьева
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