[Fis] CODE DISCUSSION. Recursion

Wed Sep 22 13:53:53 CEST 2021

I have a happy message for you, Halleluja.
It is much much easier to find suitable interdependence relation
definitions if one sorts, orders and reorders collections of realisations,
instatiations of a, b compared to not doing so.

Dr. Plamen L. Simeonov <plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 22.
Sep. 2021, 13:45:

> I think so, Karl, but the problem is that it is not that easy to model
> such processes.
> In programming languages and in mathematics usually the left-hand-side is
> defined by the right-hand-side and even a single loop back is a challenge.
> One should go deep into HoTT (homotopy type theory) when trying to find or
> invent appropriate constructs and the key is the clean specification.
>
> Best,
>
> Plamen
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 1:37 PM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky en gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Nested recursion is a feature of reorders. The periodic change affecting
>> the assembly as a whole takes place in the most of cases in a fashion that
>> affects the (groups of) individuals in the assembly with different speeds.
>> During the temporal sequence of one of the cycles constituting the
>> change, other cycles run concurrently. They appear to have different speeds
>> if the cycles count different numbers of members.
>> Loops along loops, appearing as loops within the loops (in the overall
>> pattern across several periods) - is this idea connected to the idea of
>> nested recursion?
>>
>>
>> Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov en gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 22. Sep. 2021,
>> 12:27:
>>
>>> Dear Joseph and Pedro,
>>>
>>> Nested Recursion is the key issue for biology and Lou Kauffman certainly
>>> has the best approach to it I have ever seen. We had this discussion a few
>>> years ago and I am glad that it comes up again thanks to Pedro.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Plamen
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:49 AM, joe.brenner en bluewin.ch wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Louis,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this expert and detailed construction. I have one initial
>>> question and some derived ones: does your system also refer to simple (?)
>>> mental processes such as thinking about something and then thinking about
>>> that thinking? If yes, are the graphical, symbolic structures you describe
>>> necessary? desirable? complete? What is the basis for a recursion stopping
>>> after a small, finite number of iterations?
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> ----Message d'origine----
>>> De : loukau en gmail.com
>>> Date : 22/09/2021 - 07:18 (E)
>>> À : pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>>> Cc : fis en listas.unizar.es
>>> Objet : Re: [Fis] CODE DISCUSSION
>>>
>>> Dear Folks,
>>> I am including some information  that is relevant to this issue.
>>> I define ‘recursive distinguishing” written as “recursive
>>> distinctoning”.
>>> For more, see:
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r75m4g81rtyhi6y/AAAamRlGWr9P1zeUgdcTjiNua?dl=0
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbrfjeqhmpcz7nh/AAC0vUqwXZ
>>> 0Yl9xHCZzpWSaYa?dl=0
>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbrfjeqhmpcz7nh/AAC0vUqwXZ0Yl9xHCZzpWSaYa?dl=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *RECURSIVE DISTINCTIONING Recursive Distinctioning means just what it
>>> says. A pattern of distinctions is given in a space based on a graphical
>>> structure (such as a line of print or a planar lattice or given graph).
>>> Each node of the graph is occupied by a letter from some arbitrary
>>> alphabet. A specialized alphabet is given that can indicate distinctions
>>> about neighbors of a given node. The neighbors of a node are all nodes that
>>> are connected to the given node by edges in the graph. The letters in the
>>> specialized alphabet (call it SA) are used to describe the states of the
>>> letters in the given graph and at each stage in the recursion, letters in
>>> SA are written at all nodes in the graph, describing its previous state.
>>> The recursive structure that results from the iteration of descriptions is
>>> called Recursive Distinctioning. Here is an example. We use a line graph
>>> and represent it just as a finite row of letters. The Special Alphabet is
>>> SA = { =, [, ], O} where "=" means that the letters to the left and to the
>>> right are equal to the letter in the middle. Thus if we had AAA in the line
>>> then the middle A would be replaced by =. The symbol "[" means that the
>>> letter to the LEFT is different. Thus in ABB the middle letter would be
>>> replaced by [. The symbol "]" means that the letter to the right is
>>> different. And finally the symbol "O" means that the letters both to the
>>> left and to the right are different. SA is a tiny language of elementary
>>> letter-distinctions. Here is an example of this RD in operation where we
>>> use the proverbial three dots to indicate a long string of letters in the
>>> same pattern. For example,... AAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAA ... is replaced by ...
>>> =========]O[========= ... is replaced by ... ========]OOO[======== ... is
>>> replaced by ... =======]O[=]O[======= ... . Note that the element ]O[
>>> appears and it has replicated itself in a kind of mitosis. To see this in
>>> more detail, here is a link to a page from a mathematica program written by
>>> LK that uses a 'blank' or 'unmarked state' instead of the '=" sign. Program
>>> and Output <https://www.dropbox.com/s/tkkye8g99tzm0xm/RDL.pdf?dl=0>.
>>> Elementary RD patterns are fundamental and will be found in many structures
>>> at all levels. To see an cellular automaton example of this phenomenon,
>>> look at the next link. Here we see a replicator in 'HighLife' a
>>> modification of John Horton Conway's automaton 'Life'. The Highlife
>>> Replicator follows the same pattern as our RD Replicator! We can begin to
>>> understand how the RD Replicator works. This gives a foundation for
>>> understanding how the more complex HighLife Replicator behaves in its
>>> context. HighLife Replicator.
>>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlife_(cellular_automaton)> Finally,
>>> here is an excerpt from a paper by LK about replication in biology and the
>>> role of RD. Excerpt.
>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/zm785d20bma6tb2/KauffmanExcerpt.pdf?dl=0>
>>> Recursive Distinctioning (RD) is the study of those systems that use
>>> symbolic alphabetic language that can describe the neighborhood of a locus
>>> (in a network) occupied by a given icon or letter or element of language.
>>> An icon representing the distinctions between the original icon and its
>>> neighbors is formed and replaces the original icon. This process continues
>>> recursively. RD processes encompass a very wide class of recursive
>>> processes in this context of language, geometry and logic. These elements
>>> are fundamental to cybernetics and cross the boundaries between what is
>>> traditionally called first and second order cybernetics. This is
>>> particularly the case when the observer of the RD system is taken to be a
>>> serious aspect of that system. Then the elementary and automatic
>>> distinctions within the system are integrated with the higher order
>>> discriminations of the observer. The very simplest RD processes have
>>> dialectical properties, exhibit counting and they exhibit patterns of
>>> self-replication. Thus one has in the first RD a microcosm of cybernetics
>>> and perhaps, a microcosm of the world. ---------------------- If you have
>>> read the above then you see that this mode of recursion goes between a
>>> world in which distinctions can be drawn to a new world that is a
>>> description, an encoding, of the previous  world. The encoded world is
>>> again a world of distinctions and can be encoded. The recursion of encoding
>>> encoding goes on indefinitely and creates structure of great interest. The
>>> question remains whether this is a description of fundamental process at
>>> the physical level, and how it manifests at the biological and cognitive
>>> levels. Very best, Lou Kauffman *
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 21, 2021, at 6:54 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear FISers!
>>>
>>> It is quite a long time without list activity... As you all know, the
>>> IS4SI 2021 event just took place during last week . Many of FIS parties
>>> participated, though it was complex to explore all subconference tracks and
>>> follow them under the ZOOM scheme. It is a new "virtual" regime that the
>>> pandemics has precipitated--and it will stay... In any case, for those who
>>> missed the sessions, there will be complete recordings available in due
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Anecdotally, one of the discussion themes, biological & computer codes,
>>> was raised by me during the final, closing session. I had never thought
>>> about codes in that way. Joseph made a quick response and sent later a
>>> message which I paste below. I think continuing as an open discussion could
>>> be interesting for the list.
>>>
>>> Well, I realized that if we compare biological & computer systems with
>>> inanimate systems, codes are one of the most significant differences. Apart
>>> of the genetic code, there are many biological others: metabolic codes,
>>> degradation codes, adhesion codes, histone codes, sugar codes, cytoskeleton
>>> codes, dvelopmental codes, neuronal codes, etc., etc. It is quite
>>> interesting that prokaryotes did develop very few codes and so, presumably,
>>> could not develop their constructive complexity. Something similar would
>>> have occurred in the development of computer architecture layers, based on
>>> increasing codes hierarchically arranged in general.
>>>
>>> I am not aware of any physical system which had created any kind of code
>>> (except, hypothetically, in the origins of life). Well, symmetry groups in
>>> crystallographic systems could be close, but its constructive complexity is
>>> low, quite "flat", directly dictated by the components...
>>>
>>> Are codes really significant for the information realm? Do they
>>> represent the obligatory way of channeling the inner self-construction
>>> (dynamic) information flows?
>>>
>>> Could there be a deeper discussion on codes?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dear Pedro and All,
>>>
>>> Just as the Conference was closing, Pedro brought out the extremely
>>> important subject of codes, and the result of my rushed interaction with
>>> him can be summarized as follows: codes are epistemological; dynamics are
>>> ontological.
>>>
>>> This means that codes and dynamics co-exist but are of a different
>>> nature. Codes describe the catalysts of change in living systems, but they
>>> do not change themselves without an input of energy/informatin. The same is
>>> true of codes in non-living systems, say, inorganic catalysts that degrade
>>> over time. Computer codes are purely epistemological, as many of you have
>>> said in other terms.
>>>
>>> Codes and dynamics can  be separated physically but not functionally.
>>> They instantiate non-separability as a fundamental principle.
>>>
>>> Thanks and to be continued, I hope.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
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