[Fis] CODE DISCUSSION. Recursion

Wed Sep 22 13:44:49 CEST 2021

I think so, Karl, but the problem is that it is not that easy to model such
processes.
In programming languages and in mathematics usually the left-hand-side is
defined by the right-hand-side and even a single loop back is a challenge.
One should go deep into HoTT (homotopy type theory) when trying to find or
invent appropriate constructs and the key is the clean specification.

Best,

Plamen

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 1:37 PM Karl Javorszky <karl.javorszky at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Nested recursion is a feature of reorders. The periodic change affecting
> the assembly as a whole takes place in the most of cases in a fashion that
> affects the (groups of) individuals in the assembly with different speeds.
> During the temporal sequence of one of the cycles constituting the change,
> other cycles run concurrently. They appear to have different speeds if the
> cycles count different numbers of members.
> Loops along loops, appearing as loops within the loops (in the overall
> pattern across several periods) - is this idea connected to the idea of
> nested recursion?
>
>
> Plamen <plamen.l.simeonov at gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 22. Sep. 2021, 12:27:
>
>> Dear Joseph and Pedro,
>>
>> Nested Recursion is the key issue for biology and Lou Kauffman certainly
>> has the best approach to it I have ever seen. We had this discussion a few
>> years ago and I am glad that it comes up again thanks to Pedro.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Plamen
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 22, 2021, at 10:49 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
>>
>> Dear Louis,
>>
>> Thank you for this expert and detailed construction. I have one initial
>> question and some derived ones: does your system also refer to simple (?)
>> mental processes such as thinking about something and then thinking about
>> that thinking? If yes, are the graphical, symbolic structures you describe
>> necessary? desirable? complete? What is the basis for a recursion stopping
>> after a small, finite number of iterations?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> ----Message d'origine----
>> De : loukau at gmail.com
>> Date : 22/09/2021 - 07:18 (E)
>> À : pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
>> Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es
>> Objet : Re: [Fis] CODE DISCUSSION
>>
>> Dear Folks,
>> I am including some information  that is relevant to this issue.
>> I define ‘recursive distinguishing” written as “recursive distinctoning”.
>> For more, see:
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r75m4g81rtyhi6y/AAAamRlGWr9P1zeUgdcTjiNua?dl=0
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbrfjeqhmpcz7nh/AAC0vUqwXZ 0Yl9xHCZzpWSaYa?dl=0
>> <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dbrfjeqhmpcz7nh/AAC0vUqwXZ0Yl9xHCZzpWSaYa?dl=0>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *RECURSIVE DISTINCTIONING Recursive Distinctioning means just what it
>> says. A pattern of distinctions is given in a space based on a graphical
>> structure (such as a line of print or a planar lattice or given graph).
>> Each node of the graph is occupied by a letter from some arbitrary
>> alphabet. A specialized alphabet is given that can indicate distinctions
>> about neighbors of a given node. The neighbors of a node are all nodes that
>> are connected to the given node by edges in the graph. The letters in the
>> specialized alphabet (call it SA) are used to describe the states of the
>> letters in the given graph and at each stage in the recursion, letters in
>> SA are written at all nodes in the graph, describing its previous state.
>> The recursive structure that results from the iteration of descriptions is
>> called Recursive Distinctioning. Here is an example. We use a line graph
>> and represent it just as a finite row of letters. The Special Alphabet is
>> SA = { =, [, ], O} where "=" means that the letters to the left and to the
>> right are equal to the letter in the middle. Thus if we had AAA in the line
>> then the middle A would be replaced by =. The symbol "[" means that the
>> letter to the LEFT is different. Thus in ABB the middle letter would be
>> replaced by [. The symbol "]" means that the letter to the right is
>> different. And finally the symbol "O" means that the letters both to the
>> left and to the right are different. SA is a tiny language of elementary
>> letter-distinctions. Here is an example of this RD in operation where we
>> use the proverbial three dots to indicate a long string of letters in the
>> same pattern. For example,... AAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAA ... is replaced by ...
>> =========]O[========= ... is replaced by ... ========]OOO[======== ... is
>> replaced by ... =======]O[=]O[======= ... . Note that the element ]O[
>> appears and it has replicated itself in a kind of mitosis. To see this in
>> more detail, here is a link to a page from a mathematica program written by
>> LK that uses a 'blank' or 'unmarked state' instead of the '=" sign. Program
>> and Output <https://www.dropbox.com/s/tkkye8g99tzm0xm/RDL.pdf?dl=0>.
>> Elementary RD patterns are fundamental and will be found in many structures
>> at all levels. To see an cellular automaton example of this phenomenon,
>> look at the next link. Here we see a replicator in 'HighLife' a
>> modification of John Horton Conway's automaton 'Life'. The Highlife
>> Replicator follows the same pattern as our RD Replicator! We can begin to
>> understand how the RD Replicator works. This gives a foundation for
>> understanding how the more complex HighLife Replicator behaves in its
>> context. HighLife Replicator.
>> <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highlife_(cellular_automaton)> Finally,
>> here is an excerpt from a paper by LK about replication in biology and the
>> role of RD. Excerpt.
>> <https://www.dropbox.com/s/zm785d20bma6tb2/KauffmanExcerpt.pdf?dl=0>
>> Recursive Distinctioning (RD) is the study of those systems that use
>> symbolic alphabetic language that can describe the neighborhood of a locus
>> (in a network) occupied by a given icon or letter or element of language.
>> An icon representing the distinctions between the original icon and its
>> neighbors is formed and replaces the original icon. This process continues
>> recursively. RD processes encompass a very wide class of recursive
>> processes in this context of language, geometry and logic. These elements
>> are fundamental to cybernetics and cross the boundaries between what is
>> traditionally called first and second order cybernetics. This is
>> particularly the case when the observer of the RD system is taken to be a
>> serious aspect of that system. Then the elementary and automatic
>> distinctions within the system are integrated with the higher order
>> discriminations of the observer. The very simplest RD processes have
>> dialectical properties, exhibit counting and they exhibit patterns of
>> self-replication. Thus one has in the first RD a microcosm of cybernetics
>> and perhaps, a microcosm of the world. ---------------------- If you have
>> read the above then you see that this mode of recursion goes between a
>> world in which distinctions can be drawn to a new world that is a
>> description, an encoding, of the previous  world. The encoded world is
>> again a world of distinctions and can be encoded. The recursion of encoding
>> encoding goes on indefinitely and creates structure of great interest. The
>> question remains whether this is a description of fundamental process at
>> the physical level, and how it manifests at the biological and cognitive
>> levels. Very best, Lou Kauffman *
>>
>>
>> On Sep 21, 2021, at 6:54 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan <
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> wrote:
>>
>> Dear FISers!
>>
>> It is quite a long time without list activity... As you all know, the
>> IS4SI 2021 event just took place during last week . Many of FIS parties
>> participated, though it was complex to explore all subconference tracks and
>> follow them under the ZOOM scheme. It is a new "virtual" regime that the
>> pandemics has precipitated--and it will stay... In any case, for those who
>> missed the sessions, there will be complete recordings available in due
>> time.
>>
>> Anecdotally, one of the discussion themes, biological & computer codes,
>> was raised by me during the final, closing session. I had never thought
>> about codes in that way. Joseph made a quick response and sent later a
>> message which I paste below. I think continuing as an open discussion could
>> be interesting for the list.
>>
>> Well, I realized that if we compare biological & computer systems with
>> inanimate systems, codes are one of the most significant differences. Apart
>> of the genetic code, there are many biological others: metabolic codes,
>> degradation codes, adhesion codes, histone codes, sugar codes, cytoskeleton
>> codes, dvelopmental codes, neuronal codes, etc., etc. It is quite
>> interesting that prokaryotes did develop very few codes and so, presumably,
>> could not develop their constructive complexity. Something similar would
>> have occurred in the development of computer architecture layers, based on
>> increasing codes hierarchically arranged in general.
>>
>> I am not aware of any physical system which had created any kind of code
>> (except, hypothetically, in the origins of life). Well, symmetry groups in
>> crystallographic systems could be close, but its constructive complexity is
>> low, quite "flat", directly dictated by the components...
>>
>> Are codes really significant for the information realm? Do they represent
>> the obligatory way of channeling the inner self-construction (dynamic)
>> information flows?
>>
>> Could there be a deeper discussion on codes?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> --Pedro
>>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dear Pedro and All,
>>
>> Just as the Conference was closing, Pedro brought out the extremely
>> important subject of codes, and the result of my rushed interaction with
>> him can be summarized as follows: codes are epistemological; dynamics are
>> ontological.
>>
>> This means that codes and dynamics co-exist but are of a different
>> nature. Codes describe the catalysts of change in living systems, but they
>> do not change themselves without an input of energy/informatin. The same is
>> true of codes in non-living systems, say, inorganic catalysts that degrade
>> over time. Computer codes are purely epistemological, as many of you have
>> said in other terms.
>>
>> Codes and dynamics can  be separated physically but not functionally.
>> They instantiate non-separability as a fundamental principle.
>>
>> Thanks and to be continued, I hope.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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