[Fis] black hole and information. Probabilities

Mon Oct 12 18:55:38 CEST 2020

Dear Lou,

I agree with your definition of physical information as capturing a major aspect of it. To help in understanding, though, could you please indicate if the probabilities in your physical states are statistical or logical? The same question applies to quantum theory: is the generalized probability here statistical or logical? Krassimir’s note clearly refers to non-quantum interactions. Will it turn out that the probabilities in the macroscopic and quantum worlds will be of different types?

An eager student,

Joseph

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From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Louis Kauffman
Sent: lundi, 12 octobre 2020 18:21
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: FIS; yxs at pku.edu.cn
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

Dear Krassimir,

A physical state is represented by a wave function which can be construed as a vector |z>= (z1,z2,…) in an infinite dimensional space such that ||z||^2 = Sum_{i}(|z_i|^2) converges to 1.

Measuring z produces one of the basis vectors |e_i> = (0,0,…,1,0,0,0…) (where 1 is in the ith place) with probability |z_{i}|^2. (More generally, one has a Hilbert space and and integral rather than a summation.)

In a specific application the basis vectors correspond to actual possibilities of measurement by some devices (e.g. the positions when an electron could hit a screen).

The information in |z> is this probability distribution coupled with the interpretations of the measurements. Under physical processes that are not measurements “the information is 

preserved” in the sense that ||z||^2 is left unchanged by those (unitary) processes. Quantum Theory is a generalized probability theory in this sense.

In my understanding, the above is what is meant by “physical information”.

Best,

Lou Kauffman

On Oct 11, 2020, at 9:05 PM, Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com> wrote:

Dear Xueshan,
Thank you for your remarks.

What is methodical error in physics is that the different physical interactions like gravitation are assumed as information.  
Can one describe what kind of information "Comet A can transmits to comet B". 
Only physical, chemical or mechanical interactions may exists in the not living nature.

Biological,  psychological and sociological interactions are specific only for living creatures.

"Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" 

Yes, it exists, but it doesn't know anything about itself as well as it is not recognized as an object by other objects.
The same is valid for all objects in the nature.

Finally, I could not understand what means“the black hole information is physical”.
Please, can you describe the “physical information”.
Is it the same as the reflection i.e. some structural or functional changes after physical, chemical or mechanical interactions?

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

From:  <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> Xueshan Yan

Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 4:13 AM

To:  <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> FIS

Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

Dear Krassimir,

Very sorry for my late reply.

1. Yes, your statement "The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole." is more precise than my "This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research".

2. "Without observer there is no black hole entropy, there is no information." Inadvertently, you have raised a quantum mechanical question of information. If we can remember, Einstein and Bohr have a long debate that has an essential impact on quantum mechanics. That is "Does the moon exist when no one sees it?" If there isn’t any human observer, does "black hole entropy or information" exist? I don't know.

3. "Comet A can transmits information to comet B", this information about the behavior of the two comets greatly enriches our understanding of astrophysics. Here, the first information is physical and the second is human. Therefore, in my immature view, your "Consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information." is a human informatics problem, while the black hole information is physical.

Karl's prediction is a great encouragement to us and will come true soon, let's be ready to accept the prize next year or later.

Best wishes,

Xueshan

From:  <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es < <mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 10:18 PM
To:  <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> yxs at pku.edu.cn; FIS Group < <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] black hole and information

Dear Xueshan,

I have only one remark.
The Nobel Prize is given to researchers but not to the Black hole and not to any other object in the Cosmos!

Without observer there is no Black hole entropy, there is no information.

So, the consciousness is needed to reflect reality and to assume some reflections as information.

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

From:  <mailto:yxs at pku.edu.cn> Xueshan Yan

Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2020 3:37 PM

To:  <mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es> FIS Group

Subject: [Fis] black hole and information

Dear colleagues，

This year's Nobel Prize in physics goes to black hole research today. When the curvature of space-time of a celestial body is so large that even light cannot escape from its event horizon, we call it a black hole. I. Once a black hole is formed, except for mass, angular momentum, and electric charge, all the previous material properties as objects disappear; II. The horizon area of the black hole is equal to its entropy (entropy equals negative information). These two issues form a close relationship between the research of black hole and information. The follow-up effect of this year's Nobel Prize in physics may lead to further thinking on the information in the future by astrophysicists, and lay a reverie foundation for the informational interpretation of matter several years later.

Best wishes and health,

Xueshan

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