[Fis] defining information: Meaning, Process and Disinformation

Fri Mar 27 10:28:24 CET 2020

Dear Krassimir, Christophe and All,

This last exchange is very good. It also brings out aspects of Christophe’s
MGS, which I had missed previously, that facilitate a dynamic interpretation
of information. Models begin to ‘move’, so as to resemble better what they
are modelling.

Please note that depending on how it is used, meaningless information can
also be disinformation. “Cuomo (the Governor of the State of New York)
should have bought ventilators in 2015.” For us, this is just a ridiculous
opinion, but for Trump’s undiscerning audience, his ‘base’, it is
disinformation or rather disinforming that I consider criminal. It is
morality that cannot be relativized to a social context, not information.

Keep well,

Joseph

  _____  

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Krassimir
Markov
Sent: jeudi, 26 mars 2020 23:46
To: Christophe Menant; FIS
Subject: Re: [Fis] defining information

Dear Christophe and FIS Colleagues,

I wish you strong health and patience to avoid this very dangerous virus!

About meaning:

“

A meaning is meaningful information that is generated by a system submitted
to a constraint when it receives an external information that has a
connection with the constraint. 

The meaning is formed of the connection existing between the received
information and the constraint of the system. The function of the meaning is
to participate to the determination of an action that will be implemented in
order to satisfy the constraint of the system. 

“

We still do not know what is information, so it is difficult to define
meaning.

I think your idea is very near to what we need but I prefer another way to
say the same.

INFOS reflects the surrounding environment via his/her sensors(receptors).
Signals from sensors(receptors) via some transfer mechanism like neurons
come to the brain or to the central memory of INFOS. Interconnected signals
form interconnected active points in the memory. Such formation is called
“mental model” of the reflected reality. The same is happen when one or more
active memory formation(s) is(are) reflected in another such one. This is
again “mental model” but of the subjective internal reality. So we have two
types of mental models – “objective”and “subjective”, taking in account that
the “objective” means the end of subjective reflection chain which starts
from sensors and ends in the brain, i.e. it is subjective reflection of the
objective reality, the second is subjective reflection of subjective
reality.

Now, if INFOS can interconnect one mental model with another one(s) the
first model receive meaning. If another interconnection is done, another
meaning of the same model will exist.

The interconnections are mental models, too.

So, mental model with meaning is information.

Mental model without meaning is data.

Maybe in the next letter I shall explain this on the base of the test bed.

Many thanks to all who read my post (more than 180 reads).

Be healthy and happy!

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

From: Christophe <mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>  Menant 

Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2020 9:29 PM

To: fis at listas.unizar.es 

Subject: Re: [Fis] defining information

Dear FISers,
Going through hard times should not stop us from exchanging ideas.
My two cents: 
When trying to define information we should keep in mind that information
exists to carry meanings and is used for meaning management. If there is no
need for meanings, information does not have to exist.
Assuming that we accept meaning as the core of information, we can reach
some simple definitions like: information is any energy variation that
conveys meaning or participates to meaning generation. (The former is about
meaningful information, the latter includes meaningless Information). This
definition can be used for humans, animals and artificial agents. But it
needs to explicit what is a meaning and what is meaning generation. 
As we have already talked about, this has been done by proposing a model for
meaning generation (the MGS) which allows to:
- Define a meaning, a meaningful information, and tell what a meaning is
for.
- Relate meaning to agency and to constraint satisfaction.
- Differentiate artificial agents from organic ones.
- Define agency and autonomy.
- Identify some limits of today AI .
- Introduce evolutionary scenarios for cognition, intentionality and
self-consciousness.
- Highlight some possible sources of human mental health problems.
This is more than we need to consider that defining information as a meaning
carrier (with a definition of meaning) can be a valid option. 
(a short paper at  <https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7>
https://philpapers.org/rec/MENITA-7 gives access to the above subjects). 
Let’s again recall that the proposed approach is an evolutionary one. It
does not take information as managed by humans as a starting point. This is
deliberate, in order to avoid having to consider human consciousness and
free will in our starting point. These human performances are complex and
not clearly understood by science and philosophy. Taking them into account,
even implicitly, would make our starting point unnecessarily complex. The
choice made here is to start with a case as simple as possible (meaning
generation in animals) and look at human performances as the result of an
evolutionary approach. 

Hoping that you and your families are all well in the difficult times we are
going through, I wish you the best.
Christophe

  _____  

De : Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> de la part de Francesco Rizzo
<13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
Envoyé : lundi 23 mars 2020 07:49
À : Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>
Cc : fis at listas.unizar.es >> fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>;
Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>; Emanuel Diamant
<emanl.245 at gmail.com>
Objet : Re: [Fis] defining information 

Carissimo Joseph, 

Ti ringrazio di cuore per il Tuo affettuoso augurio di buona salute alla mia
famiglia. Grazie a Dio e anche agli uomini di buona 

capacita e volontà stiamo bene.

Mi permetto di scriverTi che, non solo secondo me, ma anche per il
giudizio-pensiero di altri studiosi, molto più autorevoli del

sottoscritto:

* l'equilibrio (che sarebbe bene o meglio cambiare con armonia, anche del
dis-accordo)  può paragonarsi ad una tautologia

che al pari dell'ideologia è una falsa co-scienza; difatti  l'equilibrio
entropico è mortale, il dis-equilibrio neg-enropico è vitale;

* per quanto riguarda il rapporto tra energia e informazione, bisogna dire
che l'energia libera non è altro che una forma di in-

formazione (neg-entropica), mentre l'energia degradata (non più
trasformabile in lavoro utile o meccanico) non è altro che

una forma di dis-in-formazione (entropica);

* è necessario ricordare  che v'ha un tempo per essere generalisti e un
tempo per essere specialisti: quando si dà luogo ad 

un'iniziativa pregevole, preziosa e profetica come la FIS, nata per merito
di Pedro, prima bisogna. essere generalisti e poi 

specialisti, sapendo che il prima serve il poi.

Carissimo Joseph, leggo sempre con molta attenzione i Tuoi autorevoli
interventi-messaggi e sono sempre più convinto che solo

il rilancio della filosofia possa costituire la base onto-metodo-logica
della definizione e della narrazione-processo della LEGGE 

DELL'INFORMAZIONE, senza trascurare la scienza mediatrice dell'economia.

DateVi e diamoci da fare, perché molta strada ancora bisogna percorrere e
sperimentare.

Un abbraccio affettuoso a Te ed ai Tuoi cari, estensibile a Tutti, con
l'amore della fede, della perseveranza e del coraggio.

Grazie, grazie, grazie.

Francesco.

.

Il giorno ven 20 mar 2020 alle ore 11:21 Joseph Brenner
<joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> ha scritto:

Dear Francesco,

Please let me first express the hope that you and your family are in good
health and in a safe configuration. 

As to the content of your note, however, there are a couple of things that I
think need more discussion. I would not make the absolute cut made by
Wheeler between energy and information, and I think that Prigogine did not
pay enough attention to the complexity of processes close to equilibrium.

On the other hand, I think that your formulation of measure as a qualitative
quantity or a quantitative quality implies exactly the kind of dialectical
approach one should take to understanding information in its complexity. 

Sta bene,

Joseph

  _____  

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Francesco Rizzo
Sent: vendredi, 20 mars 2020 10:48
To: Krassimir Markov
Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es >> fis at listas.unizar.es; Pedro C. Marijuan; Emanuel
Diamant
Subject: Re: [Fis] defining information

Cari Pedro, Joseph, Krassimir, Terry e Tutti gli altri,

tenendo presente quel che avete scritto in questi ultimi tempi, desidero
dirVi alcune cose che potrebbero essere utili 

per stabilire il quadro o scenario della discussione FIS, senza alcuna
presunzione o pretesa.

*Ciò che mi spinge a partecipare al confronto-dibattito è la mia teoria del
valore (economico) basata sulla combinazione

creativa di energia, informazione e materia, sapendo che sia l'energia sia
la materia sono forme di informazione; quindi

posso in sintesi affermare che la mia teoria sia basata sul valore
dell'informazione o della tras-informazione (di cui la FIS 

nel passato s'è occupata): da quì il valore della forma o la forma del
valore. 

* Il grande fisico J. A. Wheeler, il guru della scienza dell'informazione
che portò i buchi neri all'interno dell'analisi fisico-astronomica, 

sostiene che l'unica legge fondamentale della scienza naturale sia quella
dell'informazione, non dell'energia o della materia.

* Questo vale ancora di più per le scienze umane e sociali (di cui
l'economia dovrebbe essere la regina).

* Allora bisogna concentrare l'attenzione sull'unità di ogni forma di
sapere, rifacendoci alla Nuova Alleanza di Ilya Prigogine

che ha inventato-scoperto le "strutture dissipative che creano ordine dal
disordine mediante fluttuazioni o instabilità"; questa è la fonte

di ogni informazione, sia delle scienze naturali che umane: il concetto di
neg-entropia o informazione vitale di E. Schrodinger 

la dice lunga in proposito.

* Esistono tante categorie o forme di informazione: naturale o
termodinamica, genetica o genomica, matematica o cibernetica, 

semiotico-semantica. Esse possono rifarsi tutte allo stesso quadro
definitorio: l'informazione è un processo che tende a dare forma

a tutti e a tutto, dis-informazione è il contrario (cfr. Rizzo F., "Scienza
dell'amore o amore della scienza", Aracne editrice, Roma 2019,

soprattutto i capitoli 2 e 3 dedicati a Socrate, Platone e Aristotele).

*Invece sono diverse le misure di queste tipologie di informazione che,
tuttavia, possono supportare, grossomodo, la stessa definizione.

*Infine, ma potrei dire all'inizio, quel che non bisogna dimenticare è la
lezione di scienza della logica che ci ha dato G:W. Hegel: 

fra i tanti suoi triangoli,  consiglio quello che ai tre vertici porta
qualità, quantità e misura: la misura è una quantità qualitativa o una 

qualità quantitativa. Questo consente di dosare (dialetticamente, direbbe il
nostro filosofo) il dosaggio delle misurazioni delle 

diverse forme di informazione.

Sono stato più lungo di quanto prevedevo e Vi chiedo scusa anche per l'uso
della mia lingua.

Un saluto affettuoso ed un augurio molto forte -- richiesto dai tempi in cui
(la) corona (di un).virus ha un potere .demoniaco -- al fine di

non abbassare la guardia.

Francesco

Il giorno mar 17 mar 2020 alle ore 20:56 Krassimir Markov <markov at foibg.com>
ha scritto:

Dear Pedro, Emanuel and FIS Colleagues,

1.Thank you for your remarks and interesting ideas.

Especially those which are aimed to make our communication possible in such
situation like this in the world now.

I have no information about plans and possibilities of our Brazilian
colleagues. So, please write more details.

2. I agree with Emanuel that: 

The proposed definition of information must be followed by a suggestion of
assets that make it (the information) visible, tangible, palpable. 

It was my goal when I had proposed to prepare one or more test beds.

3. According to this, now I want to invite you to see my preliminary
proposal of a sample test bed and evaluation tips for testing information
definitions and theories.

It is simple but, I hope, contains the main objects and their interactions,
which participate in the (humans’!) information processes.

Of course, it is only one from many possible.

If given definition or theory is not applicable to this test bed, maybe it
is possible another one to be proposed.

Please see 

http://idr.ithea.org/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?comments_parentId=37
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fidr.ithea.
org%2Ftiki-view_forum_thread.php%3Fcomments_parentId%3D37%26topics_sort_mode
%3DlastPost_desc%26forumId%3D3&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef
6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433537719&sdata=
xTapBEApzVF6ZDQEcMI4QFGCR039hh5HaYAZhG20zSM%3D&reserved=0>
&topics_sort_mode=lastPost_desc&forumId=3

Already registered colleagues may write directly in the Forum, other may use
FIS mailing list as usual.

I whish you to be HEALTHY, HEALTHY, HEALTHY, .... !!!

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

From: Emanuel Diamant <mailto:emanl.245 at gmail.com>  

Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 5:16 PM

To: 'Pedro C. Marijuan' <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>  

Cc: fis at listas.unizar.es 

Subject: [Fis] defining information

Dear Pedro, Dear FIS colleagues, 

I do not share the general excitement about the revitalization of the FIS
discussion on information definition. 

I am not sure that the principle of “three messages per week” or the ITHEA
Cloud Forum, with an  

unlimited number of posts and 1M-large attachments, is our main problem. I
think that our discussion (again and again) violates the basic principle of
any scientific discourse - the IF-THEN principle - according to which each
hypothetical assumption is followed by a suggestion what stems from it,
where, and how these expectations could be discerned and observed. If I
remember right, Terence and Gordana on several previous occasions have
addressed this issue, but their call has remained unanswered.

However, refreshing the definitions of information we cannot continue to
ignore the IF-THEN rule requirement - How does the defined information look
like, how it is represented, what is its real form? The proposed definition
of information must be followed by a suggestion of assets that make it (the
information) visible, tangible, palpable. 

Only this kind of information definitions is being urgently needed in the
worldwide Human Brain Research programme. Or in the overhyped global
Artificial Intelligence race. In both, Artificial Neural Networks (which are
data processing number crunching devices) are supposed to emulate human
brain biological neurons (which are pure information processing devices).
Both fail to fulfill their promises, but do not understand for what reason
and why. The current FIS discussion certainly will not help them.

Regards, Emanuel. 

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.uni
zar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a
22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433
537719&sdata=4UFRS5yghDcZQc2sEEC0v06Lq6WY2ST63P23yl3wdbY%3D&reserved=0> 
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-pe
rsonal-en-listas
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.uni
zar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-lista
s&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433547713&sdata=VpzEzZ1SZmlSJ6F11irny7qBEtrk5
6%2B%2FJB4mqLWUgDU%3D&reserved=0> 
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.uni
zar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f64
0afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433547713&sdata=yDsaqe2KWrKqNVhf0Kdr3
t4NL%2FjY3EF73brFn%2FwEcsM%3D&reserved=0> 
----------

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.uni
zar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a
22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433
557707&sdata=AWiRY9nN%2FNAf25msoDaV1GFyxB29jkvXDKcsxwOXKGE%3D&reserved=0> 
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-pe
rsonal-en-listas
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.uni
zar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-lista
s&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a
aaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433557707&sdata=L1TM3BPBQ9bzoRc7e98V2GuiFREd6
97NEbYaZl%2FOjMk%3D&reserved=0> 
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.uni
zar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e7fe9f64
0afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433557707&sdata=M9Y%2FUfi20dW%2BSKef4
bArrXA9o3zb0K2qjvlIrrP7Uyg%3D&reserved=0> 
----------

  _____  

<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast
.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e
7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433567698&sdata=U84e2fOoas%2Fy
Hd6za3GS9xCkAuRpZCij%2FzB72wxvuEE%3D&reserved=0> Avast logo

L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le
logiciel antivirus Avast. 
www.avast.com
<https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast
.com%2Fantivirus&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf637a7bca2144a22f0f708d7cef6818b%7C84df9e
7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637205430433567698&sdata=U84e2fOoas%2Fy
Hd6za3GS9xCkAuRpZCij%2FzB72wxvuEE%3D&reserved=0>  

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
----------
INFORMACISN SOBRE PROTECCISN DE DATOS DE CARACTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por
la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la informacisn sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
siguiente enlace:
https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-pe
rsonal-en-listas
Recuerde que si esta suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja
desde la propia aplicacisn en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es
----------

-- 
L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20200327/93301cd7/attachment-0001.html>