[Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Sat Mar 7 21:46:51 CET 2020

Terry -- The hierarchy {constraint {information {meaning}}} could be given
a Peircean version as: {First {Seconds {Thirds}}} in that
meaning is a derived 'realization' of an encounter experienced by a First.
>From this platform, your hierarchy is not a subsumption hierarchy,
but, instead, a compositional hierarchy, with Seconds being developed out
of a Firstness while under the regime of a Thirdness.
STAN

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 7:11 PM Terrence W. DEACON <deacon en berkeley.edu>
wrote:

> Hi Stan ,
>
> It looks like we order our parenthetical bracketing in reverse.
> Assuming the Peircean categories I would arrange parentheses as follows
> [ Thirdness [ Secondness [ Firstness ]]]
> arguing that Thirdness can be prescinded from Secondness and Secondness
> can be prescinded from Firstness.
> I am assuming that you would argue that one can consider constraint
> without considering information
> but not the other way around (and so on).
> I don't think the difference in the way we order the expressions so long
> as the order of asymmetric dependency is made clear.
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 8:01 AM Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe en binghamton.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Christophe, all --
>> Here is a subsumptive hierarchy that I think covers much of what has been
>> written so far in fis:
>>
>> (constraint {information {meaning}}}
>>
>> STAN
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:42 AM Christophe Menant <
>> christophe.menant en hotmail.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Gordana,
>>> Thanks for highlighting the agentivity I implicitly refer to.
>>> An evolutionary perspective can bring some details.
>>> Putting aside any possible finality of our universe, we can say that
>>> information came up with life in the evolution of our universe.
>>> Before that, only ubiquist laws were guiding the universe.  No
>>> information was present. It is only when a local "maintain status"
>>> constraint came up, applying to a local far from thermodynamic
>>> equilibrium, that information and agency came in (
>>> https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2).
>>>
>>> This positions local constraints as the source of agency, information
>>> and meaning. In an evolutionary perspective it looks difficult to talk
>>> about information without talking about agency. And the evolution of local
>>> constraints can characterize the evolution of our universe where management
>>> of information by humans is only a recent event (this to put into context
>>> the focus on human management of information).
>>> Best
>>> Christophe
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *De :* Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic en mdh.se>
>>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 6 mars 2020 12:37
>>> *À :* fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Cc :* Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson en filosofi.uu.se>;
>>> Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating
>>> definitions of information
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear colleagues
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just a short comment on the current discussion, regarding *physics of
>>> information*:
>>>
>>> Here is an interview that might be of interest:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ2r0zvyoA
>>> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQfQ2r0zvyoA&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=tDK0Pf6QRDuH1TJDpL1VbGmWiDnFijPSxPwBwEUc7Eg%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and special issue of Information
>>> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=VAeTiPENN6dt47%2FBHl%2F7rST5LggJaZaS3%2B4YBspOu94%3D&reserved=0>
>>> (2012) on "*Information and Energy/Matter*".  3(4), 751-755.
>>> doi:10.3390/info3040751
>>> http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information/special_issues/matter
>>> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation%2Fspecial_issues%2Fmatter&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607058733&sdata=Ofdfj%2F0LjVfHCbGf67HQkC4GO9tStgJ%2BcOqWkVQN0CU%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Measurement is only one part of physics, and it is essential that
>>> fundamental units are few and commonly shared
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit
>>> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSI_base_unit&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607068727&sdata=SyvBfuZMP%2Fltmaoblg%2BKlBwxYHJj6tOxYjT5oCufGbg%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> But meaning of it all comes from the interaction of a human (agent) and
>>> the physical world outside, thus bringing into picture much more than
>>> mapping of observations into suitable units.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Agency can be as simple thing as ability to act, and I believe
>>> Christophe talks about cognitive agency which is the property of living.
>>> Beings and cognitive artifacts, and it can be expressed in terms of agency
>>> of inanimate physical-chemical objects that those cognitive agents are made
>>> of.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Information can be as simple or as complex notion as you can imagine,
>>> but this comes with a cost – either we see no detail, or we don’t see a big
>>> picture. Or we don’t see the dynamics of it etc. What we might want, is not
>>> so much to vote for the best definition of information but instead to
>>> understand how those different definitions relate to each other, and what
>>> makes people call them information. The same goes for energy, life,
>>> cognition or any other fundamental idea that we discuss.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Gordana
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Lars-Göran
>>> Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson en filosofi.uu.se>
>>> *Date: *Friday, 6 March 2020 at 11:57
>>> *To: *Christophe Menant <christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>
>>> *Cc: *fis <fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lars-Göran Johansson
>>>
>>> lars-goran.johansson en filosofi.uu.se
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 6 mars 2020 kl. 11:37 skrev Christophe Menant <
>>> christophe.menant en hotmail.fr>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is indeed difficult to define information as it applies to many
>>> different things. But these different things have in common to be agents,
>>> and agency may be a “key feature” of information. Take away the agent,
>>> information does not exist, has no reason of being.
>>> And the reason of being of information is its meaning for the agent.
>>> Information exists only by its meaning for the agent which uses it to
>>> satisfy its constraints.
>>> The agent can then be looked at as “an identifiable entity submitted to
>>> internal constraints and capable of actions for the satisfaction of the
>>> constraints” (see para 3.2.3 inhttps://philpapers.org/rec/MENCSA-2
>>> <https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCSA-2&data=02%7C01%7C%7C917c9422d2c64c6a8e0508d7c1c2c6ee%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637190914607068727&sdata=Qaa%2FZeDS0ZhLcXNGqKyden2PJerhfFpWNc6p%2B4N%2BgMQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>> ).
>>> This would bring to a definition of information like “energy variation
>>> which leads an agent to generate meanings to satisfy its constraints”
>>> (looks like a rewording of “a difference that makes a difference"….)
>>> Best
>>> Christophe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Using the term ’agent’ in the definition of information just highlights
>>> Wittgenstein’s point. What is the common characteristics for all things
>>> called ’agents’? And ’generate meanings’? What is that?
>>>
>>> Lars-Göran
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *De :* Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet
>>> Leydesdorff <loet en leydesdorff.net>
>>> *Envoyé :* vendredi 6 mars 2020 07:47
>>> *À :* João Alvaro Carvalho <jac en dsi.uminho.pt>; fis <
>>> fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>> *Objet :* Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I gave up looking for an unifying definition of information.
>>>
>>> As soon I switch to another context (for example, moving from the
>>> context of organisational work to  the human mind or to the cell) the key
>>> features are different.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This problem is precisely a reason to stick to a content-free, i.e.,
>>> mathematical definition of information.  Information can then further be
>>> made relevant in any special theory. The application is not dimension-free.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Loet
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>> Fis en listas.unizar.es
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>> ----------
>> INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL
>>
>> Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada
>> por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
>> Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el
>> siguiente enlace:
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>
>
> --
> Professor Terrence W. Deacon
> University of California, Berkeley
>
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