[Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Fri Mar 6 20:31:17 CET 2020

Dear Gordana,

The step you introduce about living beings becoming self-reflective is an interesting subject, and it is for me close to information and meaning.
Most philosophers consider that reflectivity is the results of the consciousness of objects being turned to the living subject. But that subject is initially unknown to consciousness. This brings the need to postulate a pre-reflective self-consciousness which is key to phenomenology (for Sartre, the primary mode of consciousness is pre-reflectivity). Different positions exist on that pre-reflectivity (https://philpapers.org/rec/MIGPCS)
Interestingly, philosophy has not really considered evolution as a tool for a possible nature of reflective self-consciousness.
You may remember my interest with evolutionary approaches, so you will not be surprised by the abstract I have sent for ASSC 24 “Reflectivity as a natural performance in an evolutionary nature of self-consciousness” (available at https://www.academia.edu/41721850/ASSC24_2020_Submitted_Abstract).
That approach to self-consciousness uses information, constraints and meaning. The evolutionary scenario is based on meaningful representations as introduced in a chapter of the 2011 book you have edited with Mark Burgin (https://philpapers.org/rec/MENCOI).
If you are interested there is a short presentation of the evolutionary scenario in a 2018 poster https://philpapers.org/rec/MENPFA-4.
Best
Christophe

________________________________
De : Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se>
Envoyé : vendredi 6 mars 2020 18:04
À : Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu>; Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Objet : Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Dear Christophe, Stan

I agree about information as connected with life, and about the necessity of evolutionary perspective.

Also, about Stans:

(constraint {information {meaning}}}

with explication: for an agent.

There is one more step in this process – when living beings on some level of evolution (like humans) become capable of using information to model nature in terms of information (von Weizsäcker, Wheeler, Shannon, Wiener, von Foerster and others).

It is a new step, where living beings reflect over how we are using information, not only use information automatically for direct survival as bacteria do.

In this step the structure becomes self-reflective:

(constraint {information {meaning (constraint {information {meaning {… } }}}  }}}  (for an agent)

Information plays a different role for intelligent agents with ability to model their own “self” internally (as those who have a nervous system).

It was an attempt to propose naturalization of information while informationalizing nature.

All the best,

Gordana

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of Stanley N Salthe <ssalthe at binghamton.edu>
Date: Friday, 6 March 2020 at 17:02
To: Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>, fis <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Christophe, all --

Here is a subsumptive hierarchy that I think covers much of what has been written so far in fis:

(constraint {information {meaning}}}

STAN

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:42 AM Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>> wrote:

Dear Gordana,

Thanks for highlighting the agentivity I implicitly refer to.
An evolutionary perspective can bring some details.
Putting aside any possible finality of our universe, we can say that information came up with life in the evolution of our universe.
Before that, only ubiquist laws were guiding the universe.  No information was present. It is only when a local "maintain status" constraint came up, applying to a local far from thermodynamic equilibrium, that information and agency came in (https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENICA-2&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566862024&sdata=qm%2FoHLqwh6apEfKsjuHsrrfR7QI2bpBkIqOd3l1LVNA%3D&reserved=0>).

This positions local constraints as the source of agency, information and meaning. In an evolutionary perspective it looks difficult to talk about information without talking about agency. And the evolution of local constraints can characterize the evolution of our universe where management of information by humans is only a recent event (this to put into context the focus on human management of information).
Best
Christophe

________________________________

De : Gordana Dodig-Crnkovic <gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se<mailto:gordana.dodig-crnkovic at mdh.se>>
Envoyé : vendredi 6 mars 2020 12:37
À : fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Cc : Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se<mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se>>; Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>>
Objet : Re: [Fis] [External Email] defining information - On relating definitions of information

Dear colleagues

Just a short comment on the current discussion, regarding physics of information:

Here is an interview that might be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfQ2r0zvyoA<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQfQ2r0zvyoA&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566872028&sdata=yNCCXgp%2BFJnRR2g3%2F%2FT%2FHJlXRB0Kxua3idEC1cj9FOo%3D&reserved=0>

and special issue of Information<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566882039&sdata=nIaJ%2BeFhPDC9Pl7Ey0Jhwb9b25xY8bs9fJlzo6Wjh3E%3D&reserved=0> (2012) on "Information and Energy/Matter".  3(4), 751-755. doi:10.3390/info3040751
http://www.mdpi.com/journal/information/special_issues/matter<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2Fjournal%2Finformation%2Fspecial_issues%2Fmatter&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566892044&sdata=eqcdZTIWJpSfMVXrNnu%2FnzzS%2FuYGKhwu%2FVbcdPUJe7E%3D&reserved=0>

Measurement is only one part of physics, and it is essential that fundamental units are few and commonly shared

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSI_base_unit&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566902055&sdata=wWlEL7g14hOkrWuW6R79GMAGQJyNtUzp3wu0Ey%2F0YVk%3D&reserved=0>

But meaning of it all comes from the interaction of a human (agent) and the physical world outside, thus bringing into picture much more than mapping of observations into suitable units.

Agency can be as simple thing as ability to act, and I believe Christophe talks about cognitive agency which is the property of living. Beings and cognitive artifacts, and it can be expressed in terms of agency of inanimate physical-chemical objects that those cognitive agents are made of.

Information can be as simple or as complex notion as you can imagine, but this comes with a cost – either we see no detail, or we don’t see a big picture. Or we don’t see the dynamics of it etc. What we might want, is not so much to vote for the best definition of information but instead to understand how those different definitions relate to each other, and what makes people call them information. The same goes for energy, life, cognition or any other fundamental idea that we discuss.

All the best,

Gordana

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> on behalf of Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se<mailto:Lars-Goran.Johansson at filosofi.uu.se>>
Date: Friday, 6 March 2020 at 11:57
To: Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>>
Cc: fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Subject: Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information

Lars-Göran Johansson

lars-goran.johansson at filosofi.uu.se<mailto:lars-goran.johansson at filosofi.uu.se>

6 mars 2020 kl. 11:37 skrev Christophe Menant <christophe.menant at hotmail.fr<mailto:christophe.menant at hotmail.fr>>:

It is indeed difficult to define information as it applies to many different things. But these different things have in common to be agents, and agency may be a “key feature” of information. Take away the agent, information does not exist, has no reason of being.
And the reason of being of information is its meaning for the agent. Information exists only by its meaning for the agent which uses it to satisfy its constraints.
The agent can then be looked at as “an identifiable entity submitted to internal constraints and capable of actions for the satisfaction of the constraints” (see para 3.2.3 inhttps://philpapers.org/rec/MENCSA-2<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fphilpapers.org%2Frec%2FMENCSA-2&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566912060&sdata=B5KEyCxTtiidMUMjjcSRk3Vf0bb%2FNCANEK%2BcraRwvjY%3D&reserved=0>).
This would bring to a definition of information like “energy variation which leads an agent to generate meanings to satisfy its constraints” (looks like a rewording of “a difference that makes a difference"….)
Best
Christophe

Using the term ’agent’ in the definition of information just highlights Wittgenstein’s point. What is the common characteristics for all things called ’agents’? And ’generate meanings’? What is that?

Lars-Göran

________________________________

De : Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net<mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>>
Envoyé : vendredi 6 mars 2020 07:47
À : João Alvaro Carvalho <jac at dsi.uminho.pt<mailto:jac at dsi.uminho.pt>>; fis <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Objet : Re: [Fis] [External Email] Re: defining information

I gave up looking for an unifying definition of information.

As soon I switch to another context (for example, moving from the context of organisational work to  the human mind or to the cell) the key features are different.

This problem is precisely a reason to stick to a content-free, i.e., mathematical definition of information.  Information can then further be made relevant in any special theory. The application is not dimension-free.

Best,

Loet

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566922070&sdata=od1aqOf5SBnnp9I440NAozGfVPC6jS2fcCJsi42MteE%3D&reserved=0>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566932075&sdata=MJM1hZisAsJxsUKbWzl8MCKcCLxzG3OwQCxWRv15%2BWE%3D&reserved=0>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566952091&sdata=ZmvHy4tIK2OIRBq%2FAcuzAG9XAts7VG2FH3ajaXv2PAQ%3D&reserved=0>
----------

När du har kontakt med oss på Uppsala universitet med e-post så innebär det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. För att läsa mer om hur vi gör det kan du läsa här: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uu.se%2Fom-uu%2Fdataskydd-personuppgifter%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566962102&sdata=57yCqiYCW%2FQxu9OPU%2FZZS4tzNrhHRcwaohUi4KuOIZg%3D&reserved=0>

E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uu.se%2Fen%2Fabout-uu%2Fdata-protection-policy&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566972106&sdata=yFsesh4ns0Zvyldfk3A2gBaLpsR28RGnfW3tVAtwQHk%3D&reserved=0>

_______________________________________________
Fis mailing list
Fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:Fis at listas.unizar.es>
http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ffis&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566982117&sdata=pmEfOUJ2M6bZLEy5DgRTE4a7grHcLEIJPGAjtpC24KI%3D&reserved=0>
----------
INFORMACIÓN SOBRE PROTECCIÓN DE DATOS DE CARÁCTER PERSONAL

Ud. recibe este correo por pertenecer a una lista de correo gestionada por la Universidad de Zaragoza.
Puede encontrar toda la información sobre como tratamos sus datos en el siguiente enlace: https://sicuz.unizar.es/informacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsicuz.unizar.es%2Finformacion-sobre-proteccion-de-datos-de-caracter-personal-en-listas&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110566992128&sdata=mkqYu2yVDgBV0PP4JTAekzclwztXAuH%2F4TUXNZ2aDEQ%3D&reserved=0>
Recuerde que si está suscrito a una lista voluntaria Ud. puede darse de baja desde la propia aplicación en el momento en que lo desee.
http://listas.unizar.es<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistas.unizar.es%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C8a916fb8e1754115e68108d7c1f066ac%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637191110567002133&sdata=k2iXcAjGwfW4laEA%2BtDsGYYp79dsf4%2B%2BdiHZOgVrfBk%3D&reserved=0>
----------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listas.unizar.es/pipermail/fis/attachments/20200306/e0c71af3/attachment-0001.html>