[Fis] 10 Principles
Bruno Marchal
marchal at ulb.ac.be
Tue Jun 30 14:59:32 CEST 2020
Hi Jaime, Krassimir, Loet and others,
> On 29 Jun 2020, at 18:16, Jaime Cardenas-Garcia <jfcardenasgarcia en gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Krassimir, Loet and Bruno,
>
> Previously, I posted links to two recently published papers that might be of interest. Their titles and abstracts are given below.
>
> They relate to a fundamental perspective on information that points to a novel generic paradigm of information that treats information as a secondary concept that allows discovery of information as a primary concept. I would even venture to say that it subsumes Shannon information. Its basis is Bateson’s ‘difference which makes a difference’ allowing the discovery of the process for information as info-autopoiesis that includes objective/syntactic and subjective/semantic aspects. I welcome your engagement with the content of these papers.
>
> Bateson Information Revisited: A New Paradigm
>
> Abstract: The goal of this work is to explain a novel information paradigm claiming that all information results from a process, intrinsic to living beings, of self-production; a sensory commensurable, self-referential feedback process immanent to Bateson’s difference that makes a difference. To highlight and illustrate this fundamental process, a simulation based on one-parameter feedback is presented. It simulates a homeorhetic process, innate to organisms, illustrating a self-referenced, autonomous system. The illustrated recursive process is sufficiently generic to be the only basis for information in nature: from the single cell, to multi-cellular organisms, to consideration of all types of natural and non-natural phenomena, including tools and artificial constructions.
>
> The link is: https://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/47/1/5 <https://www.mdpi.com/2504-3900/47/1/5>
> The Process of Info-Autopoiesis – the Source of all Information
>
> Abstract: All information results from a process, intrinsic to living beings, of info-autopoiesis or information self-production; a sensory commensurable, self-referential feedback process immanent to Bateson’s ‘difference which makes a difference’. To highlight and illustrate the fundamental nature of the info-autopoietic process, initially, two simulations based on one-parameter feedback are presented. The first, simulates a homeostatic control mechanism (thermostat) which is representative of a mechanistic, cybernetic system with very predictable dynamics, fully dependent on an external referent. The second, simulates a homeorhetic process, inherent to biological systems, illustrating a self-referenced, autonomous system. Further, the active incorporation/interference of viral particles by prokaryotic cells and the activation of CRISPR-Cas can be understood as info-autopoiesis at the most fundamental cellular level, as well as constituting a planetary network of self-referenced information. Moreover, other examples of the info-autopoietic nature of information are presented to show the generality of its applicability. In short, info-autopoiesis is a recursive process that is sufficiently generic to be the only basis for information in nature: from the single cell, to multi-cellular organisms, to consideration of all types of natural and non-natural phenomena, including tools and artificial constructions.
>
>
From this abstract, I am OK, and this can be interesting, except that I am unsure what means “intrinsic to living being”. It seems to me that the machine or number self-reference, and what I call the “theology of the machine” (which is “just” the Gödel-Löb-Solovay self-reference logic, also known as “logic of provability”), illustrate that this applies already to arithmetic and the universal arithmetical creature. This makes information into a relative notion, appearing already once we postulate elementary arithmetic. I explain this often with the notion of universal dovetailing. It is easy to write a program which generates all programs, and which executes them all, by dovetailing to avoid being trapped in a non terminating computations, as this cannot be decided systematically in advance. Then using the technic of Gödel, it is easy to see that such a universal dovetailing in “naturally” implemented in elementary arithmetic.
This might not be useful to develop new information system, but is necessary to extract physics from computer science, or from arithmetic. The key here is that no machine/number can ever know which computations execute it, and the physical is recovered by a statistics on all computations. Taking into account incompleteness (machine theology) that set of computations is structured in a way confirmed by quantum physics (which I predicted from simple arithmetic + Mechanism).
That seems to be OK with what you say, except that Nature itself becomes a secondary structure, i.e. a phenomenological reality which is only the arithmetical reality as “seen” from inside by the universal (in Turing sense) machine “living” in arithmetic. If your living beings are OK with this, me, and the universal machine will be OK too!
> The link is: https://rdcu.be/b4dnU <https://rdcu.be/b4dnU>I might say more, or change my mind, after reading this, once I have more time. You might also read my papers, for example the summary for a large public I made in 2004:
B. Marchal. The Origin of Physical Laws and Sensations. In 4th International System Administration and Network Engineering Conference, SANE 2004, Amsterdam, 2004.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html>
Best Regards,
Bruno
>
> Jaime
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:22 PM Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com <mailto:markov en foibg.com>> wrote:
> Dear Loet,
> Thank you for yours remarks and questions!
>
> About point 1. Information is a primary concept
> I could not say anything. These principles were proposed by Pedro and maybe he would answer.
>
> Point 2. Information is a secondary concept
> is written to show some differences.
>
> These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept information.
> The first one is based on understanding that the information exists independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called “Attributive paradigm”.
> The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on understanding that information is a result from consciousness processing and exists only in its memory.
> So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.
>
> Why “data” instead of information?
> The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
> The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective interconnections between internal mental models and it.
>
> What is reflected by whom? The reflection for the Subject is what is activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states of its external and internal sensors.
>
> The measurement is not clear. Yes! What is happen in the consciousness is still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed structures and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called “Encyclopedia of distances” published by Springer. In addition you may see the ITHEA book “Mathematics of distances” http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm <> .
>
> You are welcome for further questions and remarks!
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Loet Leydesdorff <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>
> Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM
> To: Krassimir Markov <mailto:markov en foibg.com> ; FIS <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
> Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
>
>
> I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
>
>
> 1. Information is a primary concept
>
> 2. Information is a secondary concept
>
> 1. Information can be considered as information, neither matter nor energy.
>
> Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information in dimensionless bits.
>
> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
>
> Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.
>
>
>
> It seems that there can be mutual information between information and reflections? -:)
>
> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
>
> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
>
> What is reflected by whom
>
> Or is this universally the case?
>
> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> The measurement is not clear.
>
> 4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows) flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>
> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.Perhaps even beyond biology.
>
> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
>
>
>
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>
> loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ <http://www.leydesdorff.net/>
> Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of Sussex;
>
> Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
>
> Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;
>
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en>
> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098>;
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov en foibg.com <mailto:markov en foibg.com>>
> To: "FIS" <fis en listas.unizar.es <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>>
> Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
> Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>>
>> Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
>> From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very beginning is between two opposite cases:
>> 1. Information is a primary concept
>> 2. Information is a secondary concept
>> This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
>>
>> As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no theories about information can be created. One may create many other theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of examples may be created but not fruitful theory and discussions. For instance, the religious approach belong to this class.
>>
>> The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information starting from one or more other primary concepts.
>> I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf <http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf>), and Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
>>
>> To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5 principles of Pedro in the two variants:
>>
>>
>> 1. Information is a primary concept
>>
>> 2. Information is a secondary concept
>>
>> 1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>>
>> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every reflection is information. Only subjectively comprehended reflections are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.
>>
>> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or flows.
>>
>> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages, flows, etc.
>>
>> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>>
>> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed (either computationally or non-computationally).
>>
>> 4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>
>> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying energy flows.
>>
>> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>>
>> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>>
>>
>> I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
>> I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist, please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
>>
>> Friendly greetings
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> --
> Jaime F. Cárdenas-García, PhD, PE
> JFCardenasGarcia en gmail.com <mailto:JFCardenasGarcia en gmail.com>
> (240) 498-7556 (cell)
>
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