[Fis] 10 Principles

Tue Jul 14 23:32:07 CEST 2020

Dear Loet,
Modifying your wording from “life-processes” to “processes managed by living entities” allows to consider the content of books (their writing, printing, storage and readings) as meaningful information. And also include artificial agents which are managed (created and used) by living entities (us humans).
This supports Gordana’s comment on meaningful information always being about something for an agent. Let’s keep in mind that meaningful information exists only by and for agents (natural and artificial).
In addition, the generation of meaningful information can probably be positioned in a wide horizon of agency from a pre-biotic world to a possible post human one (https://philpapers.org/rec/MENICA-2).
There is a lot to do with these subjects.
Best regards
Christophe

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De : Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> de la part de Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net>
Envoyé : mardi 14 juillet 2020 15:50
À : Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>; fis at listas.unizar.es <fis at listas.unizar.es>; Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
Objet : Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

Dear colleagues,

Is this a coup-d'etat of the biologists? It does not follow from the role of information in processes of life that information is exclusively processed in life-processes.

Let me quote Luhmann who argued against Maturana as follows:

"Moreover, because it is tied to life as a mode of self-reproduction of autopoietic systems, the 'theory of autopoiesis does not really attain the level of general systems theory which includes brains and machines, psychic systems and social systems, societies and short-term interactions. From this point of view, living systems are a special type of systems. However, if we abstract from life and define autopoiesis as a general form of system-building using self-referential closure, we would have to admit that there are non-living autopoietic systems, different modes of autopoietic reproduction, and general principles of autopoietic organization which materialize as life, but also in other modes of circularity and self-reproduction. In other words, if we find non-living autopoietic systems in our world, then and only then will we need a truly general theory of autopoiesis which carefully avoids references which hold true only for living systems. But which attributes of autopoiesis will remain valid on this highest level, and which will have to be dropped on behalf of their connection with life?"

It seems to me that one can define information more abstractly than its manifestation in processes of living. For example, information and its meaning can be archived in libraries. A librarian may hope that there are no insects in the books who like eating them.

Best,
Loet

________________________________

Loet Leydesdorff

Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

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------ Original Message ------
From: "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch<mailto:joe.brenner at bluewin.ch>>
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es<mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>>; "fis" <fis at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>>
Sent: 7/14/2020 3:38:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

Dear Pedro and  FIS Colleagues,

I endorse this latest statement of principles. I suggest only that in 4, the phrase “among adaptive life-cycles” be deleted or replaced by “organisms”. A ‘life-cycle’ is an abstraction that cannot and does not in and of itself exchange information.

As to Koichiro’s comment, I propose restating it positively as follows: This observation can never stand alone since “all colleagues” ARE inhabitants INSIDE the LIFE sphere.

Thank you and kind regards,

Joseph

________________________________

From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es<mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: mardi, 14 juillet 2020 14:30
To: 'fis'
Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

Dear List,

Thanks for the comments. I have tried to be more inclusive in the new point 2.

Also, Point 1 has been slightly modified reminding an old comment from Lars (that info always goes "by contact")

Other changes, in point 3 now, can be justified as follows:

The fact that biological self-production either in bacteria or in organisms is accompanied respectively by a "bacterial signaling system" or by a "central nervous system" tells us that the way of life, the adaptation to the niche, always needs the development of ad hoc informational detectors. Otherwise the life cycle becomes "blind", truncated and unable to advance towards completion. At the same time, inside every cell, inside every organism, there is an internal information flow related to its own self-production. For instance in a living cell, the self-production may imply: expression, copying, translation, genetic code, modification codes, degradation... While the signaling flow may imply: signal generation, emission, transmission channel, reception, decoding/processing, meaning elaboration, response...  Both information flows, the external and the internal, become intertwined, densely mixed, at all scales of biological organization. Let us further emphasize point 1, for all these information processes imply a physical contact, as they always have to impinge on the system receptors or sensory surfaces.

So, points 1 to 5 could read as follows:

1. Information as such: distinction of an "adjacent" difference.

2. Information processes: organized action upon distinctions collected into structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.

3. Integrated information processes of life: information flows, both from the external signaling environment and from the internal productive environment, are  tightly integrated along the advancement of the adaptive life cycle --they regularly anticipate, shape, and mix up with the accompanying energy flows.

4. Biological complexity: communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization at all scales.

5. Biological cognition: cognition, meaning and knowledge can be identified within the integrated signaling/productive molecular mechanisms that adaptively transform the cell-cycle trajectory as well as in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.

The other 5 points regarding human & social aspects may be discussed later on.

All the best

--Pedro

El 13/07/2020 a las 2:01, Koichiro Matsuno escribió:

On Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:  I am not sure that all colleagues agree that information does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.

This observation should stand alone only when “all colleagues” are the inhabitants outside the LIFE sphere.

Best regards,

Koichiro Matsuno

From: Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM
To: 'fis' <fis at listas.unizar.es><mailto:fis at listas.unizar.es>
Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,

I see that maybe INFORMATION and LIFE are interconnected.

Unfortunately, I am not sure that all colleagues agree that information does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.

Because of this, the first point I expect to reflect the correspondence between information and life.

Friendly greetings

Krassimir

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Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group

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