[Fis] 10 Principles

Tue Jul 14 15:50:19 CEST 2020

Dear colleagues,

Is this a coup-d'etat of the biologists? It does not follow from the 
role of information in processes of life that information is exclusively 
processed in life-processes.

Let me quote Luhmann who argued against Maturana as follows:

"Moreover, because it is tied to life as a mode of self-reproduction of 
autopoietic systems, the 'theory of autopoiesis does not really attain 
the level of general systems theory which includes brains and machines, 
psychic systems and social systems, societies and short-term 
interactions. From this point of view, living systems are a special type 
of systems. However, if we abstract from life and define autopoiesis as 
a general form of system-building using self-referential closure, we 
would have to admit that there are non-living autopoietic systems, 
different modes of autopoietic reproduction, and general principles of 
autopoietic organization which materialize as life, but also in other 
modes of circularity and self-reproduction. In other words, if we find 
non-living autopoietic systems in our world, then and only then will we 
need a truly general theory of autopoiesis which carefully avoids 
references which hold true only for living systems. But which attributes 
of autopoiesis will remain valid on this highest level, and which will 
have to be dropped on behalf of their connection with life?"

It seems to me that one can define information more abstractly than its 
manifestation in processes of living. For example, information and its 
meaning can be archived in libraries. A librarian may hope that there 
are no insects in the books who like eating them.

Best,
Loet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loet Leydesdorff

Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

loet en leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet en leydesdorff.net>; 
http://www.leydesdorff.net/
Associate Faculty, SPRU, <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of 
Sussex;

Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>, 
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, 
<http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;

Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;

------ Original Message ------
From: "Joseph Brenner" <joe.brenner en bluewin.ch>
To: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>; "fis" 
<fis en listas.unizar.es>
Sent: 7/14/2020 3:38:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles

>Dear Pedro and  FIS Colleagues,
>
>I endorse this latest statement of principles. I suggest only that in 
>4, the phrase “among adaptive life-cycles” be deleted or replaced by 
>“organisms”. A ‘life-cycle’ is an abstraction that cannot and does not 
>in and of itself exchange information.
>
>
>
>As to Koichiro’s comment, I propose restating it positively as follows: 
>This observation can never stand alone since “all colleagues” ARE 
>inhabitants INSIDE the LIFE sphere.
>
>
>
>Thank you and kind regards,
>
>
>
>Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. 
>Marijuan
>Sent: mardi, 14 juillet 2020 14:30
>To: 'fis'
>Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
>
>Dear List,
>
>
>
>Thanks for the comments. I have tried to be more inclusive in the new 
>point 2.
>
>Also, Point 1 has been slightly modified reminding an old comment from 
>Lars (that info always goes "by contact")
>
>Other changes, in point 3 now, can be justified as follows:
>
>The fact that biological self-production either in bacteria or in 
>organisms is accompanied respectively by a "bacterial signaling system" 
>or by a "central nervous system" tells us that the way of life, the 
>adaptation to the niche, always needs the development of ad hoc 
>informational detectors. Otherwise the life cycle becomes "blind", 
>truncated and unable to advance towards completion. At the same time, 
>inside every cell, inside every organism, there is an internal 
>information flow related to its own self-production. For instance in a 
>living cell, the self-production may imply: expression, copying, 
>translation, genetic code, modification codes, degradation... While the 
>signaling flow may imply: signal generation, emission, transmission 
>channel, reception, decoding/processing, meaning elaboration, 
>response...  Both information flows, the external and the internal, 
>become intertwined, densely mixed, at all scales of biological 
>organization. Let us further emphasize point 1, for all these 
>information processes imply a physical contact, as they always have to 
>impinge on the system receptors or sensory surfaces.
>
>
>
>So, points 1 to 5 could read as follows:
>
>
>
>1. Information as such: distinction of an "adjacent" difference.
>
>
>
>2. Information processes: organized action upon distinctions collected 
>into structures, patterns, sequences, messages, or flows.
>
>
>
>3. Integrated information processes of life: information flows, both 
>from the external signaling environment and from the internal 
>productive environment, are  tightly integrated along the advancement 
>of the adaptive life cycle --they regularly anticipate, shape, and mix 
>up with the accompanying energy flows.
>
>
>
>4. Biological complexity: communication/information exchanges among 
>adaptive life-cycles underlie the complexity of biological organization 
>at all scales.
>
>
>
>5. Biological cognition: cognition, meaning and knowledge can be 
>identified within the integrated signaling/productive molecular 
>mechanisms that adaptively transform the cell-cycle trajectory as well 
>as in the action/perception cycle of central nervous systems.
>
>
>
>The other 5 points regarding human & social aspects may be discussed 
>later on.
>
>
>
>All the best
>
>--Pedro
>
>
>
>
>
>El 13/07/2020 a las 2:01, Koichiro Matsuno escribió:
>
>>On Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM, Krassimir Markov wrote:  I am not 
>>sure that all colleagues agree that information does not exist out of 
>>the LIFE sphere.
>>
>>
>>
>>This observation should stand alone only when “all colleagues” are the 
>>inhabitants outside the LIFE sphere.
>>
>>
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Koichiro Matsuno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Fis <fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es> 
>><mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es>On Behalf Of Krassimir Markov
>>Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 5:14 AM
>>To: 'fis' <fis en listas.unizar.es> <mailto:fis en listas.unizar.es>
>>Subject: Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Pedro and FIS Colleagues,
>>
>>I see that maybe INFORMATION and LIFE are interconnected.
>>
>>Unfortunately, I am not sure that all colleagues agree that 
>>information does not exist out of the LIFE sphere.
>>
>>Because of this, the first point I expect to reflect the 
>>correspondence between information and life.
>>
>>Friendly greetings
>>
>>Krassimir
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>Fis en listas.unizar.es
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>
>
>--
>-------------------------------------------------
>Pedro C. Marijuán
>Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>-------------------------------------------------
>
>
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