[Fis] 10 Principles

Wed Jul 1 10:59:43 CEST 2020

Concept of information

To me, there exists a concept of information. It is roughly the same as the
idea of the background.
Like a shadow, a background has no independent existence. Yet, it is
unavoidable to acknowledge its existence and necessity.
The technical definition of information (the collection of the remaining
alternatives) is in alignment with the concept.
One may as well discuss, whether the the concept of the subtractum exists
as such, because that is what one does not see when regarding the results
of a=c-b resp b=c-a.
That what is not there is descriptive of that what is there.

Of course, the concept only works in assemblies that are not infinite. But
as we will not find on this planet anything that would be infinite, the
idea of information being a name for the experience of the background, as
long as we remain in the confines of our milky way, remains expressible.

Karl

Lars-Göran Johansson <Lars-Goran.Johansson en filosofi.uu.se> schrieb am Mi.,
1. Juli 2020, 08:51:

>
> Dear Loet and others,
> To talk about something called ’the concept of information’ in this way,
> i.e., that one can have different paradigms about it, is still to tacitly
> assume  that we are talking about something which we disagree about. That
> something, a certain concept, is a fantasy, it doesn’t exist.
> The entire discussion is about different ways of using the *word*
> ’information’. There is no such thing as a *concept of information*.
> And as almost all philosophers agree on, the meaning of word is determined
> by its context. This was Frege’s insight, the context principle. (He was
> not the first, by the way, but the most famous)
>
> Everyone can immediately realize that by looking up almost any word in
> OED. It is not uncommon to find 20-40 different ways of using a particular
> word. So ’Information’ is in good company with most words.
>
>
> Lars-Göran
>
>
>
>
>
> 29 juni 2020 kl. 08:14 skrev Loet Leydesdorff <loet en leydesdorff.net>:
>
> Dear Krassimir
>
> These two points correspond to the different paradigms about concept
> information.
> The first one is based on understanding that the information exists
> independently of consciousness and it is everywhere. This is so called
> “Attributive paradigm”.
> The second one is the “Subjective paradigm” which is based on
> understanding that information is a result from consciousness processing
> and exists only in its memory.
> So, it is clear, I belong to the second paradigm.
>
> The issue is, in my opinion, the specification of the relation.  Concepts
> are specified and entertained in discourses to which we have reflexive
> access to different extends. "Objective knowledge" is based on coding the
> communication.
>
>
> Why “data” instead of information?
> The “Data“ and “Information” are dialectically interconnected.
> The same reflection is Data or Information depending of the subjective
> interconnections between internal mental models and it.
>
> What is reflected by whom?  The reflection for the Subject is what is
> activated on its receptors. So, the subject, or INFOS, reflects states of
> its external and internal sensors.
>
> There is a model of agency in the background of these formulations. The
> "states" cannot communicate.
>
>
> The measurement is not clear. Yes! What is happen in the consciousness is
> still not known. But for practical needs we already used differed
> structures and distances. There is nice work of Deza and Deza called
> “Encyclopedia of distances”  published by Springer. In addition you may
> see the ITHEA book  “Mathematics of distances”
> http://foibg.com/ibs_isc/ibs-25/ibs-25.htm .
>
>
> Why not use information theory for the measurement? (Theil, 1972)
>
> Best,
> Loet
>
>
> You are welcome for further questions and remarks!
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Loet Leydesdorff <loet en leydesdorff.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, June 28, 2020 8:57 PM
> *To:* Krassimir Markov <markov en foibg.com> ; FIS <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
> Dear Krassimir,
>
>
> I find it difficult to follow. I added some comments and questions?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
>
>
> *1. Information is a primary concept*
>
> *2. Information is a secondary concept*
>
> 1. Information  can be considered as  information, neither matter nor
> energy.
>
> Matter is expressed as mass (e.g. kilograms). Energy in Watts; information
> in dimensionless bits.
>
> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
> reflection is information. *Only **subjectively comprehended **reflections
> are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.*
>
> *Why subjectively? Why “data” instead of information.*
>
>
> *It seems that there can be mutual information between information and
> reflections? -:)*
>
> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or
> flows. What do you mean with “comprehended”? Who is comprehending?
>
> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages,
> flows, etc.
>
> What is reflected by whom
>
> Or is this universally the case?
>
> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured—what is the
> dimensionality? How can it be measured? , and can be processed (either
> computationally or non-computationally).
>
> The measurement is not clear.
>
> 4. Information (it seems to me that these are entropy and energy flows)
> flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up (vague) with the
> accompanying energy flows.
>
> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.Perhaps even
> beyond biology.
>
> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one
> entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections
> comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected
> by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
> underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Professor emeritus, University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>
> loet en leydesdorff.net  <loet en leydesdorff.net>; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> Associate Faculty, SPRU,  <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of
> Sussex;
>
> Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>,
> Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
> <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
>
> Visiting Fellow, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University of London;
> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
> ORCID: http://orcid.org/0000-0002-7835-3098;
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Krassimir Markov" <markov en foibg.com>
> To: "FIS" <fis en listas.unizar.es>
> Sent: 6/28/2020 3:46:22 PM
> Subject: [Fis] 10 Principles
>
>
>
> Dear Marcus and FIS Colleagues,
> From my point of view the main choice which has to be made in the very
> beginning is between two opposite cases:
> 1. *Information is a primary concept*
> *2. **Information is a secondary concept*
> This is fundamental choice which cause all further work.
>
> As I already had pointed, if information is a primary concept than no
> theories about information can be created. One may create many other
> theories for EVERYTHING but not for information. Only infinite variety of
> examples may be created but not fruitful theory and discussions. For
> instance, the religious approach belong to this class.
>
> The second case gives us possibility to create theories ABOUT information
> starting from one or more other primary concepts.
> I prefer the second case. The primary concepts I have used are Entity and
> Relationship (http://www.foibg.com/ijita/vol14/ijita14-1-p01.pdf), and
> Reflection as a result of interaction between entities.
>
> To illustrate the difference between two cases, let see the first 5
> principles of Pedro in the two variants:
>
>
>
> *1. Information is a primary concept*
>
> *2. Information is a secondary concept*
>
> 1. Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
>
> 1. Information is a class of reflections in material entities. Not every
> reflection is information. *Only subjectively comprehended reflections
> are information. Not comprehended reflections are data.*
>
> 2. Information is comprehended into structures, patterns, messages, or
> flows.
>
> 2. Reflections may be comprehended as structures, patterns, messages,
> flows, etc.
>
> 3. Information can be recognized, can be measured, and can be  processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 3. Reflections can be recognized, can be measured, and can be processed
> (either computationally or non-computationally).
>
> 4. Information flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 4. Reflection flows are essential organizers of life's self-production
> processes--anticipating, shaping, and mixing up with the accompanying
> energy flows.
>
> 5. Communication/information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles underlie
> the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
> 5. Communication is based on special kind of reflections created by one
> entity and reflected by a second one. This way, the reflections
> comprehended as information by the first entity may be secondary reflected
> by the second one. Such information exchanges among adaptive life-cycles
> underlie the complexity of biological organizations at all scales.
>
> I am afraid that many of FIS members prefer the first case.
> I do not know who prefer the second one beside me. If such ones exist,
> please write to me and we will continue the productive common work.
>
> Friendly greetings
> Krassimir
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
>
> Loet Leydesdorff
>
> Professor, University of Amsterdam
> Amsterdam School of Communications Research (ASCoR)
> Kloveniersburgwal 48, 1012 CX Amsterdam.
> Tel. +31-20-525 6598; fax: +31-842239111
>
> loet en leydesdorff.net  <loet en leydesdorff.net>; http://www.leydesdorff.net/
> Visiting Professor, ISTIC,  <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
> Honorary Professor, SPRU,  <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of
> Sussex; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
>
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