Krassimir Markov markov at foibg.com
Thu Jan 23 17:45:07 CET 2020

Dear Joseph,
Thank you for the answer.!

I think in the future discussions we may clear the usefulness of mathematical models for information theories.
Especially for programmers the Theory of categories is very useful.  
I teach it just to software engineers (second year bachelors).
A lot of bibliography on this topic exists, for instance:
Category Theory for Computing Science 
Basic Category Theory for Computer Scientists (Foundations of Computing)

Now it is time for this discussion, which, I think, is a good starting point for further analysis.
Thank you for the nice work and professional moderating it!

Friendly greetings

From: Joseph Brenner 
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 5:27 PM
To: fis 
Cc: pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es 
Subject: [Fis] LECTURE RESPONSES UP TO 23.01.20

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

Herewith as promised is my second group of comments. Since there are some things with which I can agree in most responses, they will be indexed D/A, rather than D. Rather than separate them for another later group, I have also included comments with which I agree, designated A2.

I look forward to your responses as the basis for the final phase of the discussion.

Thank you and best wishes,


D/A.1 03.01 Michel was quite positive on the intent of the Lecture, and I accept his thanks. I placed his comments in this category simply because I felt he was arguing from examples that were too binary, such as optical illusions.

A2.1 Mark’s emphasis in this note on communication and complexity and its ‘management’ are right on. It can and will be included in the final summary of possible FIS ‘actions’.

D/A.2 18.01 As Loet knows, I have great respect for his theory of communication. I just think his critique of the notion of truth could have been stated more positively. How do the code and progress of science ‘operate’? Also, falseness is not restricted only to leaders. Finally, for better understanding, Louis XIV may well be called the Great King of the codification, but the contrast with Caligula is not warranted since I did not claim such a role for him. For me, a theory of falsehood, as of disinformation, begins with intent.

A2.3 18.01 Stan points correctly to the dialectics of modern art, where distortions are ‘false’, markers of an artist’s sensibility. Photography in contrast is ‘correct’, but can itself be manipulated as disinformation. Art is not disinformation, however, since there is no intent to deceive for material gain. 

A2.4 20.01 Again, I take from this comment by Pedro on the parallel ‘communication’ thread the need to refocus on disinformation and the possibility of its detection.

D/A.3 21.01 I (Joseph) accept the rebuke of Pedro and an off-line member of the group. The latter stated that my tone was ‘Fascist’. In agreeing, with apologies, I note that an ‘anti-Fascist’ manifesto can still have a Fascist tone, to be avoided. My criticism of cultural relativism still stands for further discussion.

A.4 22.01 Terry’s note goes to the heart of intent and its complexity. I tend to think that ‘cultural-hyper-relativism’, produced with the intention only to persuade and not to mislead is mis-information, but is probably quite rare.

His second point comes back to the problem of markers for disinformation or rather disinforming. It will add to the body of comments along these lines.

A.5 22.01 Pedro discusses how disinformation can arise in situations involving large bodies of knowledge as well as the new media, which overlap. There is a link to emotional reactions to, I suppose, both information annd disinformation that in and of itself may be a form of disinformation, depending as always, as I see it, on intent. 

D.1 22.01 I (Joseph) regret that Krassimir not taken just one fact and given his expert analysis of it. As to some comments by others being at the ‘wiki-level’, that seems a polite and accurate way of describing them. 

I do not see, however, without further discussion which I hope he will provide, how a theory that describes the relations of mathematical entities (morphisms) and ways of mapping between them (functors) can apply to information process phenomena. A structure is not necessarily a static entity. The term meta- is used in the sense of both ‘about’ and ‘beyond’; especially in the second use, I do not see a requirement for the principle, from category theory, of exclusivity and exhaustivity. There is no need for absolute separation between, say, between physics and metaphysics. I think there is a lot more to be said about the dynamic structure of information and disinformation in this sense because I see in it the possibility for new markers for disinformation. I hope this justifies my having gone to this length.

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