[Fis] FW: Cultural Relativsm. Disinformatiion and the Universe ofDiscourse

Wed Jan 22 21:08:54 CET 2020

Dear Joseph and FIS Colleagues,

I am silent in this discussion due to two reasons:
1. It is very interesting collecting of primary facts from different areas which have to be analyzed properly, unfortunately some of them are on the wiki-level.
2. I do not want to interrupt it with new breaking ideas as for example “disinformation = misinformation = information”. Let it goes as it’s going now.

I am writing this letter because of need to make one short remark to Josef:

Meta data ate data about data.
It is impossible to have Meta-Structure i.e. Structure about Structure. 
We may have only multi-level structures i.e. structures of structures of structures, etc.
Let remember the Theory of Categories.

Friendly greetings
Krassimir

From: Joseph Brenner 
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 8:10 PM
To: fis 
Subject: [Fis] FW: Cultural Relativsm. Disinformatiion and the Universe ofDiscourse

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

The notes of Terry and Pedro, read together, point to a locus of disinformation where 1) the disinformer refuses to enter into the universe of discourse of his/her interlocutor with 2) the intent to mislead and persuade third-parties. This is happening every day in Washington. Closer to home, a for me key related phase in Pedro’s note is “insistence to apply one’s own expertise”. This is why exchange of real information/real exchange of information requires reference to both the other’s point of view and his/her presentation of it, as well as the differences with one’s own.

May I just suggest the neologism of meta-structure rather than meta-data to point to the complexity of the process? (I had suggested the presence of reference to the other’s point of view as a ‘marker’.) This would help to make the necessary bridge to cognitive science and psychology, without limitation to an index or ‘rating’. But perhaps such a first marker or mode of alert would be as much as the society can handle for the time being. . .

Thank you and best wishes,

Joseph

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From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Pedro C. Marijuan
Sent: mercredi, 22 janvier 2020 14:48
To: fis at listas.unizar.es
Subject: Re: [Fis] Cultural Relativsm

Dear List,

In science itself we have good instances of the information/disinformation conundrum. We have a enormous stock of specialized knowledge in the order of 6,000 disciplines. In front of new problems or too complex ones, the insistence to apply the own expertise creates real problems of disinformation/misinformation and real clashes of cultures. Not long ago, in the 60s & 70s, autism was attributed by leading experts (under the influence of psychology & clinical schools) to "refrigerator mothers"--literally. It added a lot to the suffering of many families. It still could be heard in the 80s... In science we need a lot of discussion and often heated exchanges to arrange the appropriate portions of knowledge that best fits the research problems at hand. In general, confrontation between distant cultures, scientific or otherwise, raises not very kind reactions.

And the new media--internet, mobiles, social networks-- also generate very easily reactions of Khaneman's System 1 type (say fast, inconsiderate, self-asserting). Part of the "hooks" that fake news display are based on provoking that type of immediate visceral reactions: outrage/fear/aggressiveness/despise & supremacism/etc. Both the amputated (caricature) context to which these news refer and the type of reactions they elicit become elements for seeing them as fake--rather easily for the informed observer.  MacLuhan would have said that these new media are very cool and very inclusive of ourselves. Personally I had observed long ago that just irrelevant emails can ignite "flares" far more often than the old media we used (letters), even the faxes of the 80s and 90s were already elements more susceptible to create conflict.

By the way, this list has been traditionally a place of respect and good tone, and of freedom of thought. Please, let us keep our high standards.

Best--Pedro  

El 22/01/2020 a las 2:41, Terrence W. DEACON escribió:

  Is cultural-hyper-relativism intellectual disinformation or just misinformation?

  Does it depend on whether the intention is to mislead or just persuade?

  What if the purveyor is a believer who is selfishly trying to get people to agree with his theory?

  Ah, the complex subtlety of the role of intent.

  Are there metadata that might correlate with the intent behind disinformation?

  Assessing this would the analogue to using galvanic skin response and heart rate for lie detection.

  I.e. an index that would automatically update with each replication to provide a crude "reliability rating" linked to each message.

  Though fallible and defeatable it could be a first mode of alert - like the initial pause when you answer a robocall.

  On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:14 AM Joseph Brenner <joe.brenner at bluewin.ch> wrote:

    Dear Some,

    This note is to denounce a principle of cultural relativism that has crept into the Lecture discussion. The concept that opposing points of view are always equally valid is a form of crypto-fascism that for me is totally unacceptable. It is Trump’s “there are good guys on the other side”, which included the murderers of a demonstrator. Does anyone on the list want to suggest that clitorectomies are acceptable because “it’s part of the culture”? I do not intend to include responses to such notes in my final summary. If this position is not to the liking of some members, they can erase my future messages, as I have theirs.

    Joseph

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-- -------------------------------------------------Pedro C. MarijuánGrupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/------------------------------------------------- 

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