[Fis] FIS discussions

Mon Oct 7 19:41:18 CEST 2019

Dear colleagues,

I am glad to see that there is interest in discussing the complex concept
of information as it applies to living phenomena more fundamental than
language (e.g. memory and molecular genetics). Language is a very late to
evolve, highly idiosyncratic, species-specific mode of communicating
between organisms (humans). It is useful to confine our discussions to this
context so long as we recognize that it is both highly specialized and
based upon many more basic levels of non-linguistic non-symbolic forms of
information production and interpretation. Some of these are neurological
and others are molecular. As a neuroscientist and evolutionary biologist
these levels of analysis are of special interest to me. But to approach our
subject with the recognition of this complexity, we need to be far more
humble about having provided a complete "general theory of information" and
carefully pre-specify the level of system that we are considering. For
example, the concept of memory involves far more than the influence of RNA
or protein effects on neurons and synapses, and the terms 'meaning' and
'semantics' are well-suited for discussing information-related functions in
linguistic terms, but poorly suited for use in neurological and molecular
informational contexts. We can best progress by recognizing these
complexities, acknowledging the limitations of overgeneralization, and
specifying the contexts in which our comments apply. And of course, a bit
of humility in the face of this complexity will provide helpful lubrication.

— Terry

On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 6:23 AM Francesco Rizzo <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Caro Pedro e Cari Tutti,
> è comprensibile che un parto sia caratterizzato dal travaglio, ma non deve
> tardare a venire, proprio mentre i matematici
> continuano a parlare con Dio e la fisica resta (non si arresta) quale
> regina della scienza. Pur essendo consapevole
>  dell'informazione dell'economia o della economia dell'informazione, sento
> il timore di non aver, neanch'io, titolo per
>  affrontare-dipanare la problematica e la problem(e)tica sollevate da
> questo inizio giovanile e infuocato della discussione Fis.
> Quindi invito, coloro che sono più esperti di me, a porre la questione del
> "paradosso dell'informazione" nell'ambito
> della letteratura sui "buchi neri", onde trarne qualche opportuno
> insegnamento. Infine, parlare con Dio significa,
> come a Papa Francesco ed a me, forse prima, è capitato di fare,
> evidenziare l'economia del Vangelo o il Vangelo
>  dell'economia. Beninteso, non v'ha nessun riferimento in questo mio
> scrivere pesante e leggero o leggero e pesante
>  alcuna strumentale o finalistica intenzione di introdurre nel
> nostro-Vostro dibattito l'economia della fede o la fede
> dell'economia, volgarmente intesa o scambiata come la coscienza-obbedienza
> religiosa o religiosa-obbedienza della coscienza.
> Grazie e un abbraccio.
> Francesco.
>
>
> Il giorno lun 7 ott 2019 alle ore 13:58 Pedro C. Marijuan <
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es> ha scritto:
>
>> Dear Emanuel and Colleagues,
>>
>> You do not need to apologize, and you do not need to suppose that
>> memory-synaptic themes are undiscussable in this list either. Conversely,
>> it looks an intriguing matter that perhaps you can prepare yourself a
>> little bit longer and we can have a discussion session on it (you are
>> kindly invited to chair it, or to suggest a chair). I have often insisted
>> in the necessity to maintain a high standard of scholarly discussion,
>> particularly in this new time of tight cooperation with IS4SI. We must
>> count to 10, to 100, or better wait to the next day in order to produce
>> seasoned responses to themes or opinions we strongly disagree. But those
>> "fast and furious" exchanges may also leave interesting points. In this
>> case I gather three at least: the qualitative limits of reason, the
>> quantitative limits of "acting" reason, and the informational approach to
>> the religious phenomenon. In due time, we can have ad hoc discussion
>> sessions, chaired ones, on that. Personally I find more productive the
>> chaired format, although having periods like the present one of spontaneous
>> free-wheeling is also OK.
>>
>> And now to your substantive request. Looking at the board structure of
>> IS4SI, I think that candidates to be IS4SI (& FIS) Ambassadors --or
>> delegates or representatives-- could write to Tadashi Takenochi (in charge
>> of regional Chapters) or Xueshan Yan (Institutional Membership) and of
>> course to the current President (Marcin Schroeder) in order to receive the
>> OK and start organization work. Or for more simplicity, I write here the
>> address of the IS4SI Secretariat (Annette Grathoff
>> <annette.grathoff at is4si.org> <annette.grathoff at is4si.org>) for those
>> willing more specific information on IS4SI potentialities (
>> http://is4si.org/);  I can also help. Given the parties currently in the
>> list, I venture we could have at least half dozen new Sections or Chapters.
>> Why not to have them before the end of this year?
>>
>> Best wishes
>> --Pedro
>>
>> El 07/10/2019 a las 8:27, Emanuel Diamant escribió:
>>
>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> As usually, I apologize for interfering with the ongoing discussion on
>> the future chapters arrangement. The subject is important and great, but
>> (as usual) the discussion quickly degrades to self-promoting advertisements
>> and old ideas revitalization. This is a dead-ended passageway.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the current (Oct 04, 2019) *Science* issue, Vol. 366, pp. 83-89, a
>> paper of the UT Southwestern team is published, where the scientists
>> describe how they have implanted memories into the birds brains to guide
>> the learning of their songs. The guys do not ask “what is memory?” They
>> even do not need an answer – they are busy with medical implementations of
>> their findings. It is self-understood that answering such a question has to
>> be our duty. But again, we are not ready to keep up with this challenge.
>>
>>
>>
>> A similar case happened a year ago – In the ENEURO journal, published on
>> May 14, 2018, an UCLA research group reported a successful memory transfer
>> from one marine snail to another. I have immediately informed my FIS
>> colleagues about this achievement, but the news left them indifferent.
>>
>>
>>
>> (As usual, not to make my FIS colleagues angry, I had not mentioned that
>> the UCLA experiment reliably confirms my assumption that Information (and
>> all its derivatives – thoughts, feelings, memories) are material entities,
>> that is, are strings of nucleotides comprising the text of an information
>> message. As such, they can be processed, manipulated, and even relocated.
>> Memories are not more arrangements of adjustable synapses, as the brain
>> researchers traditionally view them. Memories are real linguistic
>> descriptions of observed structures that we retain and recycle in our
>> brains and our neuronal arrangements. As said, I did not mention the
>> above details, and my note passed unnoticed).
>>
>>
>>
>> Never mind, I am usual that from the heights of “Data and Information”
>> masterpiece (Krassimir and the other FIS bessere Menschen) problems of
>> memory (information) transposition and rearrangement are irrelevant and
>> inappropriate. Never mind, I am usual that such subjects are undiscussable
>> in FIS community.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, what happens with the New Chapters proposal? Really, a good and a
>> timely idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Emanuel.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>> -------------------------------------------------
>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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-- 
Professor Terrence W. Deacon
University of California, Berkeley
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