[Fis] Anticipatory Systems--"Potential"

Francesco Rizzo 13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com
Wed Nov 21 12:49:15 CET 2018


Caro Joseph,
non v'è niente nell'esistenza e nella conoscenza che non sia, ad un tempo,
(in)formata e (in)formatrice. I numeri sono simboli, come le parole
sono segni: aventi la forma del valore o la forma del significato. I numeri
sono delle variabili quanto-qualitative ad-atte alla misura. Non pretendo
di possedere alcuna verità, ma nel campo dell'economia epistemologica, con
la E maiuscola dovuta alla LIR, non si com-prende niente se non si
 considerano contemporaneamente le grandezze cardinali, ordinali e
quanto-qualitative.
Un abbraccio, davvero affettuoso a Te, a Pedro e a Tutti.
Grazie.
Francesco.

Il giorno mer 21 nov 2018 alle ore 09:38 Joseph Brenner <
joe.brenner en bluewin.ch> ha scritto:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
>
>
> Pedro’s approach, solidly anchored in biology, allows for progress in
> understanding. Two comments on his ‘logic’: 1) I would not call the
> ‘concoction’ within which we live imaginary. It is rather a set of real,
> dynamic mental processes, with actual and potential, effectively causal
> components. 2) ‘Complex life’ instantiates potential (and kinetic) energy
> not only in a ‘book keeping role’. Complex life is constituted by actual
> and potential energy evolving in cycles and stages. Some myths (Epimetheus
> and Prometheus) correctly express this duality and its evolution.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, there is another myth that I believe correctly models part
> of Jerry’s proposals. It is that of Procrustes, an innkeeper who stretched
> or cut the legs of his guests to make them fit the only available beds,
> until taken care of by Heracles. You write:   A lot more needs to be said
> about the intimate nature of relations among scientific narratives before
> one can bind the logic of the perplex number system to the grammars
> associated with mathematically structured anticipatory systems.
>
>
>
> This sentence needs to be parsed, given the concatenation of terms: in my
> opinion, the purpose of understanding the relations among scientific
> narratives is to understand real anticipatory systems, whether or not
> mathematically structured. Perplex numbers are artificial numerological
> constructions with a corresponding logic that may or may not apply to other
> artificial constructions, such as abstract anticipatory systems, without
> dynamics. Narratives about real science could be applied in principle to
> such questions, but the implication must be avoided that such application
> would tell us anything about reality.
>
>
>
> I cannot accept any manipulation of numbers as being more than *a
> posteriori. *This applies also to Karl’s approach. Also, the concept of
> an ‘in-*formed*’ number is an oxymoron, although I understand the attempt
> to ascribe ‘value-by-association’, so to speak. Numbers cannot accept
> ‘form’, or its meaning; they exist, eternally, outside the world of form
> and change.
>
>
>
> I thus stress the importance of Pedro’s statement:  processes do not go smoothly
> upwards from the quantum level. As one proceeds to higher levels of
> reality, there are discontinuities and different laws apply. One only notes
> the presence of some isomorphisms, such as the failure of some macroscopic
> process equations to commute or distribute. Finally, I, at least, will
> resist any attempts to let in, through the back door, anti-scientific
> concepts of quantum processes in mind and cognition.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Joseph
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Fis [mailto:fis-bounces en listas.unizar.es] *On Behalf Of *Pedro C.
> Marijuan
> *Sent:* mardi, 20 novembre 2018 21:15
> *To:* fis
> *Cc:* Jerry LR Chandler
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] Anticipatory Systems--"Potential"
>
>
>
> Dear Jerry and FIS colleagues,
>
> I wonder how big or how clever your Chemostat apparatus should be. There
> are thousands of metabolic intermediates in an organism, and there are
> another thousands of diversified signals. And we have in the order of 30
> billion cells (trillions in the US system). Plus around 100 trillion of
> bacterial cells in the microbiome. "We" are the emergence all of that
> molecular diversity. It does not mean that life exactly "controls" all the
> details of the mega-information of this whole system... How that control is
> organized, the principles of biological information, so to speak, become
> another great question, but probably very different from the idea of mass
> control in a chemostat. In any case, the way you have argued it,
> seemingly smoothly going upwards from the quantum level, is beyond of what
> I consider feasible. Scientific overstretching of a reasonable paradigm
> perhaps.
>
> Socially, indeed, we do not try to communicate around by following a
> colossal strategy of reducing happenstances to their quantum description;
> neither to the kind of meta-languages you mention. In general, social
> communication revolves around narratives. They are not free-wheeling
> constructions (at least referring to the "great stories" of all epochs) but
> optimized tools to guide individuals in the advancement of their lives, in
> the achievement of their "potential". Looking at the historical evolution
> of those great stories, they are teaching us about which were the cardinal
> aspects of common life to be specifically grasped by the child, by the
> adolescent, by the maiden, the artisan, the warrior, the priest... And in
> this social communication endeavors, life cycles do not appear as
> homogeneous linearly "timed". Human lives are continuously looking ahead,
> anticipating ("Prometheus" style) but simultaneously looking at the past
> and pondering on it ("Epimetheus" style). Although "presentists", we live
> within an imaginary concoction built of mosaic pasts and futures,
> "multi-timed" so to speak. The way to harmonize past, present, and future
> (vital information) is one of the leit motifs of those great stories.
>
> And about cycles, so many of them can be found. At the scale of the
> organism:  cellular & tissular cycles, metabolic cycles, behavioral cycles,
> ultradian cycles, circadian cycles, seasonal cycles, yearly cycles, secular
> cycles, and many others related to social mores. Some of them can be
> arranged in a sort of hierarchy or inclusivity, but there is a fundamental
> diversity. That most of this orchestration of cycles does not require a
> conscious effort does not mean that we should ignore them concerning the
> roots of social communication. The cycles and stages (and "passages")
> within a life cycle have an ominous presence. As i was saying, the
> "potential" of each young life in ascend requires the reception of wisdom
> (via social communication narratives) to integrate the own individual path
> within the social matrix of the time.
>
> Thinking twice about the "potential" of life, it might be something
> important to consider regarding any form or manifestation of life. Perhaps
> better than the Principle of Conatus from Spinoza I was referring days ago
> (the effort to self-maintain and flourish). Complex life has "potential" to
> advance along some multi-time, multi-cycle developmental path in the most
> complex of all environments: the social matrix. Is there some deep
> similarity of this potential with the role that "potential" energy plays in
> our book-keeping of energy conservation?
>
> Thanking the comments,
> Best--Pedro
>
>
> El 19/11/2018 a las 1:55, Jerry LR Chandler escribió:
>
> Pedro, List:
>
>
>
> To put this in context, see  my extensive post of Oct 27, which is
> re-posted below.
>
> On Oct 31, 2018, at 3:53 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also I would like to be able to respond to other demands from Jerry, but
> here is my counter-demand: could you adventure tools to formally capture
> such a multi-time, multi-rhythm being as a life-cycle in progress?
>
>
>
> Here I merely respond to Pedro’s counter demand.
>
>
>
> The formal capture of such “multi-time, multi-rhythm being as a life cycle
> in process” is captured by time sequences of measurements on specific
> compositions of the specific species of life.  The wide-spread
> experimentation with Chemostats is one such example. The Chemostat
> apparatus establishes and maintains a steady state rate of reproduction
> with constant input flows of nutrients and constant outflow of cells and
> waste and unused nutrients. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemostat
>
> A chemostat allows unbounded number of measurements of time series of
> unbounded number of cellular components by merely changing flow rates and
> other constraining parameters.
>
>
>
> (I really do not understand the distinction between the terms "multi-time"
> and "multi-rhythm" since multi-rhythm infers multi-time.  Perhaps it would
> be more appropriate to speak of the multiplicity of biochemical cycles that
> are necessary for the chemical system to reproduce itself in the sense that
> one cell begets two cells in uni-cellular organisms or, similarly, in
> higher organisms with orgasms, two individuals reproduce by generating a
> third individual with directly comparable cycles.)
>
>
>
> More directly to the issues of numbers and information theory, the
> remaining challenges are not a consequence of “errors” of thinking in the
> basic physics of matter.  Rather, a central unsolved problem is closely
> associated with time and material cycles, cycles within material cycles,
> cycles within cycles within material cycles.   Quantum theory (QED)
> provides the basic mathematics to initiate cycles within cycles (nuclear
> spin surrounded by electron spin).  The challenge is to generate  from QED
> mathematics, the mathematics of cycles within cycles with cycles describing
> molecules, and higher cycles of natural sorts and kinds.
>
>
>
>  This can be deictic with a partition of the complete lexis of all
> possible narratives. The formal status  should relate to Tarski’s
> “meta-languages”.  see “The Primary Logic” by Michel Malatesta for a
> detailed description of the relationships between the lexus of individual
> disciplines.
>
>
>
> The following quote from Cerruti (Foundations of Chemistry · August 2017) seems
> to illuminate certain aspects of the problem:
>
> In a sense, the very same title of the foundational work by Rudolf Carnap
> (Der logische Aufbau der
>
>
>
> [image: page4image1160]
>
> Welt, 1928) expresses very clearly the cognitive purposes of the
> proponents of this viewpoint. The semantic view shifts the philosopher’s
> attention from the logical analysis of theories towards an investigation
> based on mathematical models. A relevant supporter of this standpoint is
> the Dutch philosopher Bas van Fraassen (mentioned by Fortin and coauthors).
> In his 1980 essential work, van Fraassen clearly speaks of ‘‘failure of the
> syntactic approach’’ and strongly claims that: ‘‘the notions of truth and
> model belong to semantics’’ (van Fraassen 1980, pp. 43 and 53). According
> to the Dutch philosopher ‘‘Any structure which satisfies the axioms of a
> theory [...] is called a model of that theory’’, and ‘‘The models occupy
> centre stage’’. Van Fraassen’s models are to be intended in the strictly
> mathematical sense of the theory of models. For example, talking about the
> Bohr’s atomic model, he distances himself from this use of the term: ‘‘in
> the scientists’ use, ‘model’ denotes what I would call a model-type’’ (van
> Fraassen 1980, p. 44). In synthesis: ‘‘For the Syntactic View, what is
> not (or cannot be) reconstructed axiomatically is not theoretical, while
> for the Semantic View, what is not (or cannot be) modeled mathematically is
> not theoretical’’. Based on this sharp contrast, it is not surprising that
> the supporters of the syntactic versus semantic views have often chosen a
> ‘‘strategy of combat’’ within the philosophical debate (Winther 2015).
>
>
> I’ll stop here for now.  A lot more needs to be said about the intimate
> nature of relations among scientific narrative before one can bind the
> logic of the perplex number system to the grammars associated with
> mathematically structured anticipatory systems.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 21, 2018, at 1:58 PM, Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear FIS Collegues,
>
> To Jerry: Thanks for the appreciation. I cannot object the logico-formal
> path you propose, but is it feasible?
>
>
>
> Since it already operates in nature, does this make these paths
> mathematically infeasible?
>
>
>
> It seems that nature does what nature does, without questioning it’s
> feasibility!
>
>
>
> Several disciplines already have made the logic-formal path of molecular
> biology the critical basis of practice - the leading practitioners of
> personalized medicine, for example.  The readers of this list have the
> opportunity to learn the foundation of modern biomedical information
> theory, rather than simply deny its existence!  Meanwhile, the high school
> students of today are learning the intricacies of the several coding
> systems necessary to represent natural information transfer.
>
>
>
> I really doubt that a new way of thinking could emerge by logically
> bridging those different disciplines; the magnitude is more than enormous.
>
>
>
> Your strange fears are unwarranted, in my opinion.
>
>
>
> My argument is that the most pressing problems in the informational arena
> (susceptible of being "bridged") refer to cell-cycle logics of signaling,
> and human life advancement and social communication strategies.
>
> Hmmmm…
>
> It seems to me that your analysis could be stronger if you separate the
> grounding of information transmission in various narrative categories.
> Pragmatic information transportation is grounded in composed
> organizations.  Naturally composed organizations are not merely
>  mathematical metaphysics, they are real functional identities.
>
> At the root of organized systems are the codes of representations. Quantum
> theory forms the dynamics. The informed numbers of nature form the
> transmission agents for information transfer and information re-formations
> (reactive compositions that change the scale of being).  Organisms
> reproduce information, not merely send information from point A to point B.
>
>
> The informed numbers of living systems are not merely inert symbols of
> meta-physical mathematics (phenomenology?), but informed numbers have
> attributes.  The attributes of informed numbers are expressible in several
> codes (symbol systems), including the electrical symbols of quantum theory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Narratives are not the sceintific subject per se, but only in their tight
> relationship with the advancement of our own individual lives. Tales,
> comedies, tragedies, operas, novels, lullabies, media, today propaganda ...
> are natural units with different calibers that are useful for different
> life situations. In all cases the universal reference is the advancement of
> the life course.
>
>
>
> Very interesting sentences.
>
> But, without a definition of what is meant by “natural units”, it is
> unclear to me what the logical content is.
>
> For example, what are the "natural units” of psychology?
>
>
>
> In other words, if I may ask, is the intent to assert some sort of
> universal extension?
>
> If this conjecture is true, I would appreciate a hint or two about the
> logical base of the extension. Are you seeking to imply Tarski’s
> meta-languages?
>
>
>
> Stories provide us with a unique mirror to the inner dynamics of human
> nature.
>
>
>
> Is this sentence ambiguous?
>
> The the term “mirror” merely a metaphor to remove reality from the
> dynamics of the human?
>
> Or, is it the same sort of “mirror” used in Quantum theory to distinguish
> the asymmetry of optical isomers that are essential for generating human
> dynamics?
>
>
> While I appreciate the attempts to create a useful descriptive language
> for biological information theory, it seems to me that a foundation for
> scientific information theory must be a quantitive theory with logical
> terms that represent mathematical terms.  The concept of informed numbers
> provide such a basis. Elsewhere, I have used the term “organic mathematics”
> to represent the relation logics of informed numbers.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Pedro C. Marijuán
>
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>
>
>
> pcmarijuan.iacs en aragon.es
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
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