[Fis] : Anticipatory Systems

Mark Johnson johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
Sun Nov 11 17:31:08 CET 2018


Dear all,

Whilst appreciating the opportunity to think about narrative (and the
aspect of narrative which interests me most is coherence) I have been
worrying about less positive ways in which stories can be powerful. Every
nasty ideological regime in history has a story to tell to defend itself.
My mind was drawn to Popper's "The Poverty of historicism". He's right
isn't he?

This is where I disagree with Pedro about logic and complexity. We tend to
make stories about things we don't understand - and complexity is one of
those things: a story is a metasystem of something. If we are free to
choose our metasystem, we are free to manipulate others. I am tempted to
say logic is not a narrative but it is revealed through narrative's
structure. More importantly, logic may be a metasystem of itself. That
implies that logic (and maybe LIR) is a fundamental expression of the
structure of consciousness through which everything else is experienced.

Is this another story? If it is, then I might distinguish it from other
possible stories by the extent of its coherence (to me). Logic is the
epitome of coherence, isn't it?

On Tue, 6 Nov 2018, 19:51 Pedro C. Marijuan <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
wrote:

> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>
> Commenting first on Xueshan, agreeing with him in several remarks, but
> disagreeing on why "firms" or even "societies" should be denied the genuine
> communication capability? The communication, quite massive, among the
> former generates conventional markets, stock markets, futures markets, etc.
> Firms have "closure" in several senses (legal, administrative, productive,
> personnel) and engage in cooperation, competition, "predation" etc.
> Precisely it is one of the most curious scenarios of emergence about
> problem-solving derived from social information: most of our present
> world-economy. These days we read about the Chinese-American "commercial
> war"; it is another instance where two clearly identifiable partners send
> signals, communications, etc. about each-other commercial behavior. Future
> world supremacy is at the stake... In my opinion we can learn quite
> interesting things from each of these emerging informational arenas.
>
> Joseph made interesting points. My personal trouble with LIR is that it
> has been mostly thought concerning the logic of the physical, of the
> inanimate, plus relatively easy instances of self-organization. In its
> present formulation it says relatively little about the conditions of
> complexity in life, how living entities must behave and cooperate to
> produce the emergence of new instances of organized "closure". However I
> think that symmetry, balance of opposites, symmetry breaking & restoration,
> where LIR views can be engaged, are very meaningful concerning the massive
> organization of cellular signaling--but who can advance that synthetic job?
> Herein the parallel with synthesizing social narratives can be of some
> interest. It has been my main concern along this discussion...
>
> I have not entered yet into synthesizing the contents of Booker's work
> (remember: The Seven Basic Plots). It is quite difficult a job, and an
> extra impediment for the task has been the kind suggestion by Malcolm
> (offline) to confront it with James Bonnet (Stealing Fire from the Gods,
> 2006). So, it will take an extra time. In any case, if the life cycle, or
> life course, or life arch, as lived in a series of (socially interesting)
> circumstances is the fundamental content of all stories, of all narratives,
> that means that we are handling an inner schema (a composite of many other
> lower level schemes) of how life stories have to flow, and we pay singular
> attention to violations of expectations (Loet's?), within a curious economy
> of information, redundancy, etc. "Where is the story?" we ask when someone
> is boring us with a trite narrative. This violation of expectations may
> connect with humor and with "the news"... but the story would get too
> confusing now.
>
> Best wishes
> --Pedro
>
>  El 05/11/2018 a las 6:42, Xueshan Yan escribió:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Let’s return to the core theme of narrative/story of this session--a very
> valuable direction in information studies. Here I would like provide some
> historical achievements which were developed by other related disciplines
> and give some comments related to Pedro’s early consideration. If no
> evident specifications, the default effectiveness only be limited to human
> atmosphere.
>
> *1. Surface Structure of Information: Word, Sentence, Discourse*
>
> According to the linguistic research in the past decades, the surface
> structure of information can be divided into three levels: word, sentence,
> and discourse (also called text). Some people think that clause and
> paragraph should be added to them, but they are not generally recognized
> because they have not put forward effective results. For a long time, word
> and sentence research has achieved almost perfect theoretical results,
> while discourse research is still under exploration. The most famous work
> about discourse research formed by Teun A. van Dijk of the Netherlands,
> whose theory of News Schemata which he put forward in 1986 reached the peak
> in this aspect. Since then, the whole discourse theory has never got
> important achievement until today. Word, Sentence, and Discourse are the
> surface structure of information (meaning) existing as physical sign form.
>
> *2. Narrative: A Special Discourse*
>
> Narration is a kind of describing behavior of information, and its result
> is narrative. Narrative is a special discourse, which focuses on the
> description of one or more events or others. It is mainly applied in the
> humanities, especially in literature and history. Natural science and
> engineering science generally do not use this concept. The soul of a
> narrative is that it must have story. A story is a narrative that was
> constituted of one or more figures' thoughts, words, and actions as the
> main line. The record of one's daily life could be narrative and there is
> not always story in it. The yearbook records everything but there is not necessarily
> a story there. Story is the basic premise of novel, ballad, lullaby, opera,
> song, music, painting, etc. The most typical study of story is carried out
> by folklorists, psychologists, and linguists, such as Smith Thompson, Jean
> Mandler, David Rumelhart and others, they have put forward the theory of
> motif, plot, and story grammar in 1970s, but their research is still
> difficult now. Behind Discourse, Narrative, and Story, there are complex
> and interesting information issues.
>
> *3. Stratification and Reduction: An Inevitable Way to Develop Information
> Studies*
>
> In a 2002 post, Pedro summed up an interesting idea: Cell-Brain-Firm, it
> also be expressed as Cell-Brain-Society sometime. It implied information stratification
> existentialities and could make people separate information research on
> cell from information research on society. However, this idea has received
> little attention from our FIS/UTI circle afterwards. In my opinion, the
> problem perhaps is that the consideration is defective at logical level. I
> have coined two concepts in my research, one is "Inforware" and the other
> is "Communication-dipole" which can explain this problem. An Inforware is a
> physical object consisting of Information, Sign, and Substrate. A pair of
> Inforwares that can communicates each other is called a
> Communication-dipole. An Inforware can holds information, and a
> Communication-dipole can transmits information.
>
> Analyzing Pedro's idea, both of cell and brain are organism, they can be
> consider as Inforwares and of course can form Communication-dipole to
> communicate each other, but a society cannot be consider as Inforware and
> we cannot find an opponent to communicate with unless we consider it as
> an Inforware and can communicate with other society as a whole, such as a
> panda society or a rice society. So, if Pedro agrees, I would like to
> revise the Cell-Brain-Firm idea to Molecule-Cell-Brain idea (of course,
> should plus elementary particle and mechanical product in somewhere of
> it.). All Molecules, Cells, and Brains can be consider as Inforwares and of
> course can form Communication-dipoles to communicate. Information research
> inside brain is a biology task, and outside brain is a (Human/Social)
> Informatics task. Stratification and Reduction analysis is the way to
> develop information studies inevitably in the future.
>
> (The above discussions have been described in detail in my book *Information
> Science: Concept, System and Perspective*, (2016)).
>
>
>
> Best wishes to all,
>
> Xueshan
>
> *From:* fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es>
> <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> *On Behalf Of *Joseph Brenner
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:53 PM
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* [Fis] FW: Anticipatory Systems. Vicious Coherence
>
>
>
> Dear Pedro and All,
>
>
>
> Despite the promising start, I think we are indeed missing a central
> element and more importantly its function, which may not be to bring
> coherence as such but a proper view of the co-existence and co-operation of
> coherence and incoherence/decoherence, consistency and inconsistency,
> coincidence and decoincidence, certitude and incertitude. In a
> world/context where we are confronted daily with the vicious coherence of a
> quasi-fascist system, not taking it into account would make the FIS
> discussion worse than incorrect; it would make it irrelevant.
>
>
>
> The tools to formally capture at least the part of living cyclical
> processes that can be so ‘captured’ (binary concept, again) may look quite
> differently from those we are used to. I have suggested that the dances and
> rhythms – to use Pedro’s excellent image – can be not modelled but
> described by reference to a contradictorial dynamics of motion from
> actuality to potentiality and back plus a basis for emergence. As simply as
> I can put them, here are some further things I believe need to be addressed
> as a consequence:
>
>
>
> 1.      Simple references to cycles and cyclicity, ignoring the
> sinusoidal development of natural phenomena, which suggest a return to an
> identical point on the curve, should be avoided.
>
> 2.      It should be obvious to Karl and others that an alternative to
> “classical Wittgenstein logic” exists, namely Logic in Reality, but its
> explanatory capacity has simply been ignored. Why? My discussion of a logic
> for macroscopic processes can be found in a recent Physics *arXiv *
> article.
>
> 3.      Pedro’s point about ‘multi-time’ has also been addressed in my
> logical system, basically, by suggesting a more interactive relation
> between time and space than is possible in classical mechanics.
>
> 4.      Karl, your formulation, in my humble opinion, includes another
> error if my point of view is at least accepted for discussion: you have
> intuition and instinct on one side, and ‘science’ and certitude on the
> other. The statement of the problem in dichotomous terms is part of the
> problem.
>
> 5.      Unless the cases are constructed and limited, attempting to
> foretell the future is a Promethean objective which will bring its own
> punishment.
>
>
>
> I look forward, still, to some minimum exchange on the above. Cheers,
>
>
>
> Joseph (Epimetheus)
>
>
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>
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>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.eshttp://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
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