<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Dear all,</span><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Whilst appreciating the opportunity to think about narrative (and the aspect of narrative which interests me most is coherence) I have been worrying about less positive ways in which stories can be powerful. Every nasty ideological regime in history has a story to tell to defend itself. My mind was drawn to Popper's "The Poverty of historicism". He's right isn't he?</div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">This is where I disagree with Pedro about logic and complexity. We tend to make stories about things we don't understand - and complexity is one of those things: a story is a metasystem of something. If we are free to choose our metasystem, we are free to manipulate others. I am tempted to say logic is not a narrative but it is revealed through narrative's structure. More importantly, logic may be a metasystem of itself. That implies that logic (and maybe LIR) is a fundamental expression of the structure of consciousness through which everything else is experienced. </div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div dir="auto" style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Is this another story? If it is, then I might distinguish it from other possible stories by the extent of its coherence (to me). Logic is the epitome of coherence, isn't it?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, 6 Nov 2018, 19:51 Pedro C. Marijuan <<a href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_-66860618433241696moz-cite-prefix">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br>
<br>
Commenting first on Xueshan, agreeing with him in several remarks,
but disagreeing on why "firms" or even "societies" should be
denied the genuine communication capability? The communication,
quite massive, among the former generates conventional markets,
stock markets, futures markets, etc. Firms have "closure" in
several senses (legal, administrative, productive, personnel) and
engage in cooperation, competition, "predation" etc. Precisely it
is one of the most curious scenarios of emergence about
problem-solving derived from social information: most of our
present world-economy. These days we read about the
Chinese-American "commercial war"; it is another instance where
two clearly identifiable partners send signals, communications,
etc. about each-other commercial behavior. Future world supremacy
is at the stake... In my opinion we can learn quite interesting
things from each of these emerging informational arenas.<br>
<br>
Joseph made interesting points. My personal trouble with LIR is
that it has been mostly thought concerning the logic of the
physical, of the inanimate, plus relatively easy instances of
self-organization. In its present formulation it says relatively
little about the conditions of complexity in life, how living
entities must behave and cooperate to produce the emergence of new
instances of organized "closure". However I think that symmetry,
balance of opposites, symmetry breaking & restoration, where
LIR views can be engaged, are very meaningful concerning the
massive organization of cellular signaling--but who can advance
that synthetic job? Herein the parallel with synthesizing social
narratives can be of some interest. It has been my main concern
along this discussion...<br>
<br>
I have not entered yet into synthesizing the contents of Booker's
work (remember: The Seven Basic Plots). It is quite difficult a
job, and an extra impediment for the task has been the kind
suggestion by Malcolm (offline) to confront it with James Bonnet
(Stealing Fire from the Gods, 2006). So, it will take an extra
time. In any case, if the life cycle, or life course, or life
arch, as lived in a series of (socially interesting) circumstances
is the fundamental content of all stories, of all narratives, that
means that we are handling an inner schema (a composite of many
other lower level schemes) of how life stories have to flow, and
we pay singular attention to violations of expectations (Loet's?),
within a curious economy of information, redundancy, etc. "Where
is the story?" we ask when someone is boring us with a trite
narrative. This violation of expectations may connect with humor
and with "the news"... but the story would get too confusing now.
<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
--Pedro <br>
<br>
El 05/11/2018 a las 6:42, Xueshan Yan escribió:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_-66860618433241696WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Colleagues,</span><span style="color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Let</span><span style="font-family:DengXian">’</span><span lang="EN-US">s return to the core theme of narrative/story
of this session--a very valuable direction in information
studies. Here I would like provide some historical
achievements which were developed by other related
disciplines and give some comments related to Pedro</span><span style="font-family:DengXian">’</span><span lang="EN-US">s
early consideration. If no evident specifications, the
default effectiveness only be limited to human atmosphere.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">1. Surface Structure of Information: Word,
Sentence, Discourse<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">According to the linguistic research in the
past decades, the surface structure of information can be
divided into three levels: word, sentence, and discourse
(also called text). Some people think that clause and
paragraph should be added to them, but they are not
generally recognized because they have not put forward
effective results. For a long time, word and sentence
research has achieved almost perfect theoretical results,
while discourse research is still under exploration. The
most famous work about discourse research formed by Teun A.
van Dijk of the Netherlands, whose theory of News Schemata
which he put forward in 1986 reached the peak in this
aspect. Since then, the whole discourse theory has never got
important achievement </span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">until today.</span><span lang="EN-US"> Word,
Sentence, and Discourse are the surface structure of
information (meaning) existing as physical sign form.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">2. Narrative: A Special Discourse<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">Narration is a kind of
describing behavior of information,</span><span lang="EN-US">
and its result is narrative. Narrative is a special
discourse, which focuses on the description of one or more
events or others. It is mainly applied in the humanities,
especially in literature and history. Natural science and
engineering science generally do not use this concept. The
soul of a narrative is that it must have story. A story is a
narrative that was constituted of one or more figures'
thoughts, words, and actions as the main line. The record of
one's daily life could be narrative and there is not always
story in it. The yearbook records everything but there is
not </span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">necessarily
a story there. Story is the basic premise of novel, ballad,
lullaby, opera, song, music, painting, etc. The most typical
study of story is carried out by folklorists, psychologists,
and linguists, such as Smith Thompson, Jean Mandler, David
Rumelhart and others, they have put forward the theory of
motif, plot, and story grammar in 1970s, but their research
is still difficult now.</span><span lang="EN-US"> Behind
Discourse, Narrative, and Story, there are complex and
interesting information issues.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><b><span lang="EN-US">3. Stratification and Reduction: An
Inevitable Way to Develop Information Studies<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">In a 2002 post, Pedro summed up an interesting
idea: Cell-Brain-Firm, it also be expressed as
Cell-Brain-Society sometime. It implied information </span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">stratification
existentialities and could make people separate information
research on cell from information research on society.
However, this idea has received little attention from our
FIS/UTI circle afterwards. In my opinion, the problem
perhaps is that the consideration is defective at logical
level. I have coined two concepts in my research, one is
"Inforware" and the other is "Communication-dipole" which
can explain this problem. An Inforware is a physical object
consisting of Information, Sign, and Substrate. A pair of</span><span lang="EN-US"> Inforwares that can communicates each other is
called a Communication-dipole. An Inforware can holds
information, and a Communication-dipole can transmits
information.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Analyzing Pedro's idea, both of cell and brain
are organism, they can be consider as Inforwares and of
course can form Communication-dipole to communicate each
other, but a society cannot be consider as Inforware and we
cannot find an </span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">opponent</span><span lang="EN-US"> to
communicate with unless we consider it as an Inforware and
can communicate with other society as a whole, such as a
panda society or a rice society. So, if Pedro agrees, I
would like to revise the Cell-Brain-Firm idea to
Molecule-Cell-Brain idea (of course, should plus elementary
particle and mechanical product in somewhere of it.). All
Molecules, Cells, and Brains can be consider as Inforwares
and of course can form Communication-dipoles to communicate.
Information research inside brain is a biology task, and
outside brain is a (Human/Social) Informatics task.
Stratification and Reduction analysis is the way to develop
information studies inevitably in the future.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">(The above discussions have been described in
detail in my book <i>Information Science: Concept, System
and Perspective</i>, (2016)).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;text-indent:20.0pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Best wishes to all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.65pt;line-height:17.0pt"><span lang="EN-US">Xueshan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> <a class="m_-66860618433241696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</a>
<a class="m_-66860618433241696moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph
Brenner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 1, 2018 4:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="m_-66860618433241696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Fis] FW: Anticipatory Systems. Vicious
Coherence<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Dear
Pedro and All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Despite
the promising start, I think we are indeed missing a central
element and more importantly its function, which may not be
to bring coherence as such but a proper view of the
co-existence and co-operation of coherence and
incoherence/decoherence, consistency and inconsistency,
coincidence and decoincidence, certitude and incertitude. In
a world/context where we are confronted daily with the
vicious coherence of a quasi-fascist system, not taking it
into account would make the FIS discussion worse than
incorrect; it would make it irrelevant.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">The
tools to formally capture at least the part of living
cyclical processes that can be so ‘captured’ (binary
concept, again) may look quite differently from those we are
used to. I have suggested that the dances and rhythms – to
use Pedro’s excellent image – can be not modelled but
described by reference to a contradictorial dynamics of
motion from actuality to potentiality and back plus a basis
for emergence. As simply as I can put them, here are some
further things I believe need to be addressed as a
consequence:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><span>1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Simple references to cycles
and cyclicity, ignoring the sinusoidal development of
natural phenomena, which suggest a return to an identical
point on the curve, should be avoided.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><span>2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">It should be obvious to Karl
and others that an alternative to “classical Wittgenstein
logic” exists, namely Logic in Reality, but its explanatory
capacity has simply been ignored. Why? My discussion of a
logic for macroscopic processes can be found in a recent
Physics <i>arXiv </i>article.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><span>3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Pedro’s point about
‘multi-time’ has also been addressed in my logical system,
basically, by suggesting a more interactive relation between
time and space than is possible in classical mechanics. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><span>4.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Karl, your formulation, in
my humble opinion, includes another error if my point of
view is at least accepted for discussion: you have intuition
and instinct on one side, and ‘science’ and certitude on the
other. The statement of the problem in dichotomous terms is
part of the problem.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:53.4pt"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><span>5.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Unless the cases are
constructed and limited, attempting to foretell the future
is a Promethean objective which will bring its own
punishment.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">I
look forward, still, to some minimum exchange on the above.
Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Joseph
(Epimetheus)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<hr size="3" align="center" width="100%"></span></div>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:9.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="font-size:6.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#4453ea"></span></a></span><span style="font-size:6.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424e" lang="EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-66860618433241696moz-signature" cols="72">--
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a class="m_-66860618433241696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a class="m_-66860618433241696moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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