[Fis] The shadows are real !!!
John Collier
ag659 at ncf.ca
Mon Feb 26 04:37:49 CET 2018
Inclined to agree with Joseph. I would like to point out that there are
different meanings for "real', and one has to be clear about ones
metaphysics to make the idea (somewhat) clear. Peirce, for example,
would call Plato's shadows (which aren't really shadows at all, real,
but not existent. The sort of shadows that we normal experience are both
real and existent on Peirce's account.
John
On 2018/02/26 4:58 AM, joe.brenner at bluewin.ch wrote:
>
> Dear FISers,
>
> With all due respect to Krassimir, Sung, and his son, it is
> becoming a matter of scientific interest that statements by them
> and others to the effect that "systematic research of what the
> 'shadows' are a part" has not been done are made routinely. First
> of all, the logic in reality of Lupasco about which I have been
> talking here for 10 years, includesa new mereology in which the
> dynamic relations between part and whole are set out for
> discussion. Second, while the 'diagram' of Merleau-Ponty may be
> considered interesting as philosophy and as a foundation of
> religious belief, I see no reason to include it, without heavy
> qualification, in a discussion of the foundations of information
> science.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
> ----Message d'origine----
> De : sji at pharmacy.rutgers.edu
> Date : 25/02/2018 - 15:04 (PST)
> À : ag659 at ncf.ca, fis at listas.unizar.es
> Objet : Re: [Fis] The shadows are real !!!
>
> Hi Krassimir,
>
>
> I agree with you that "/The shadows are real/ but only a part
> of the whole. What is needed is a systematic research from
> what they are part."
>
>
> In my previous post, I was suggesting that Shadows are a part
> of the irreudicible triad consisting of *Form (A), Shadow (B)
> *and*Thought (C)*. The essential notion of the ITR
> (Irreducible Triadic realrtion) is that A, B, and C cannot be
> reduced to any one or a pair of the triad. This
> automatically means that 'Shadow' is a part of the whole triad
> (which is, to me, another name for the Ultimate Reality), as
> Form and Thought are. In other words, the Ultimate Reality is
> not Form nor Shadow nor Thought individually but all of them
> together, since they constitute an irreducible triad. This
> idea is expressed in 1995 in another way: The Ultimate
> Reality is the /complementary union/ of the /Visble/ and the
> /Invisible World/ (see *Table 1* attached). Apparently a
> similar idea underlies the philosophy of Maurice Merleau-Ponty
> (1908-1961), according to my son, Douglas Sayer Ji (see his
> semior research thesis submitted in 1996 to the Department of
> Philosophy at Rutgers University under the guidance of B.
> Wilshire, attached).
>
>
> All the best.
>
>
> Sung
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Fis <fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es> on behalf of John
> Collier <ag659 at ncf.ca>
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:51 PM
> *To:* fis at listas.unizar.es
> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] The shadows are real !!!
> Daer Krassimir, List
>
> I basically support what you are saying. I understand the
> mathematics you presented, I am good at mathematics and
> studied logic with some of the best. However, and this is a
> big however, giving a mathematical or logical proof by itself,
> in its formalism, does not show anything at all. One has to be
> able to connect teh mathematics to experience in a
> comprehensible way. This was partly the topic of my
> dissertation, and I take a basically Peircean approach, though
> there are others that are pretty strong as well.
>
> I fgenerally skip over the mathematics and look for the
> empirical connections. If I find them, then generally all
> becomes clear. Without this, the formalism is nothing more
> than formalism. It does not help to give formal names to
> things and assume that this identifies things, Often trying to
> follow up approaches kine this is a profound waste of time. I
> try to, and often am able to, express my ideas in a nonformal
> way. Some mathematically oriented colleagues see this as
> automatically defective, since they think that formal
> representation is all that really rigorously explains things.
> This sort of thinking (in Logical Positivism) eventually led
> to its own destruction as people started to ask the meaning of
> theoretical terms and their relation to observations. It is a
> defunct and self destructive metaphysics. Irt leads nowhere --
> my PhD thesis was about this problem. It hurts me to see
> people making the same mistake, especially when it leads them
> to bizarre conclusions that are compatible with the formalism
> (actually, it is provable that almost anything is compatible
> with a specific formalism, up to numerosity).
>
> I don't like to waste my time with such emptiness,
>
> John
>
> On 2018/02/25 6:22 PM, Krassimir Markov wrote:
>> Dear Sung,
>> I like your approach but I think it is only a part of the whole.
>> 1. */The shadows are real/* but only a part of the whole.
>> What is needed is a systematic research from what they are part.
>> 2. About the whole now I will use the category theory I have
>> seen you like:
>> /CAT_A => F => CAT_B => G => CAT_C /
>> //
>> /CAT_A => H => CAT_C /
>> //
>> /_F ○ G = H /
>> where
>> /F/, /G/, and /H/ are /*functors*/;
>> /CAT_II Î CAT/ is the category of /*information interaction
>> categories*/;
>> /CAT_A Î CAT_II / and /CAT_C Î CAT_II / are the categories
>> of */mental models’ categories/*;
>> /CAT_B Î CAT_II / is the category of */models’ categories/*.
>> Of course, I will explain this in natural language (English)
>> in further posts.
>> Smile
>> ;
>> Dear Karl,
>> Thank you for your post – it is very useful and I will discus
>> it in further posts.
>> ;
>> Dear Pedro,
>> Thank you for your nice words.
>> Mathematics is very good to be used when all know the
>> mathematical languages.
>> Unfortunately, only a few scientists are involved in the
>> mathematical reasoning, in one hand, and, as the Bourbaki
>> experiment had shown, not everything is ready to be formalized.
>> How much of FIS members understood what I had written above?
>> The way starts from philosophical reasoning and only some
>> times ends in mathematical formal explanations.
>> Friendly greetings
>> Krassimir
>>
>>
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> --
> John Collier
> Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate
> Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban
> Collier web page
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--
John Collier
Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban
Collier web page <http://web.ncf.ca/collier>
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