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Inclined to agree with Joseph. I would like to point out that there
are different meanings for "real', and one has to be clear about
ones metaphysics to make the idea (somewhat) clear. Peirce, for
example, would call Plato's shadows (which aren't really shadows at
all, real, but not existent. The sort of shadows that we normal
experience are both real and existent on Peirce's account.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/02/26 4:58 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:joe.brenner@bluewin.ch">joe.brenner@bluewin.ch</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:185866472.194.1519613885446.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch">
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;"><font
face="Arial">Dear FISers,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">
<div><font face="Arial">With all due respect to Krassimir, Sung,
and his son, it is becoming a matter of scientific interest
that statements by them and others to the effect that
"systematic research of what the 'shadows' are a part" has
not been done are made routinely. First of all, the logic in
reality of Lupasco about which I have been talking here for
10 years, includes</font><font face="arial,sans-serif"> a
new mereology in which the dynamic relations between part
and whole are set out for discussion. Second, while the
'diagram' of Merleau-Ponty may be considered interesting as
philosophy and as a foundation of religious belief, I see no
reason to include it, without heavy qualification, in a
discussion of the foundations of information science.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Thank you,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Joseph</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left:15px;">----Message
d'origine----<br>
De : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu">sji@pharmacy.rutgers.edu</a><br>
Date : 25/02/2018 - 15:04 (PST)<br>
À : <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ag659@ncf.ca">ag659@ncf.ca</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
Objet : Re: [Fis] The shadows are real !!!<br>
<br>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hi Krassimir,</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I agree with you
that "<em style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: large;
font-weight: bold;">The shadows are real</em><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;"> but
only a part of the whole. What is needed is a systematic
research from what they are part."</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;">In my
previous post, I was suggesting that Shadows are a part
of the irreudicible triad consisting of
<b>Form (A), Shadow (B) </b>and<b> Thought (C)</b>. The
essential notion of the ITR (Irreducible Triadic
realrtion) is that A, B, and C cannot be reduced to
any one or a pair of the triad. This
automatically means that 'Shadow' is a part of the whole
triad (which is, to me, another name for the Ultimate
Reality), as Form and Thought are. In other words, the
Ultimate Reality is not Form nor Shadow nor Thought
individually but all of them together, since they
constitute an irreducible triad. This idea is
expressed in 1995 in another way: The Ultimate Reality
is the <i>complementary union</i> of the
<i>Visble</i> and the <i>Invisible World</i> (see <b>Table
1</b> attached). Apparently a similar idea underlies
the philosophy of Maurice Merleau-Ponty (1908-1961),
according to my son, Douglas Sayer Ji (see his semior
research thesis submitted in 1996 to the Department of
Philosophy at Rutgers University under the guidance of
B. Wilshire, attached). </span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;">All the
best.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span
style="font-size: large; font-family: Calibri;">Sung</span></p>
<p style="text-align: left; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px;"> </p>
<br>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fis
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"><fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es></a> on behalf of John
Collier <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ag659@ncf.ca"><ag659@ncf.ca></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis@listas.unizar.es</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fis] The shadows are real !!!</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">Daer Krassimir, List<br>
<br>
I basically support what you are saying. I understand
the mathematics you presented, I am good at mathematics
and studied logic with some of the best. However, and
this is a big however, giving a mathematical or logical
proof by itself, in its formalism, does not show
anything at all. One has to be able to connect teh
mathematics to experience in a comprehensible way. This
was partly the topic of my dissertation, and I take a
basically Peircean approach, though there are others
that are pretty strong as well.<br>
<br>
I fgenerally skip over the mathematics and look for the
empirical connections. If I find them, then generally
all becomes clear. Without this, the formalism is
nothing more than formalism. It does not help to give
formal names to things and assume that this identifies
things, Often trying to follow up approaches kine this
is a profound waste of time. I try to, and often am able
to, express my ideas in a nonformal way. Some
mathematically oriented colleagues see this as
automatically defective, since they think that formal
representation is all that really rigorously explains
things. This sort of thinking (in Logical Positivism)
eventually led to its own destruction as people started
to ask the meaning of theoretical terms and their
relation to observations. It is a defunct and self
destructive metaphysics. Irt leads nowhere -- my PhD
thesis was about this problem. It hurts me to see people
making the same mistake, especially when it leads them
to bizarre conclusions that are compatible with the
formalism (actually, it is provable that almost anything
is compatible with a specific formalism, up to
numerosity).<br>
<br>
I don't like to waste my time with such emptiness,<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/02/25 6:22 PM,
Krassimir Markov wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-size:14pt; font-family:'Calibri';
color:#000000">
<div><font size="4">Dear Sung,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">I like your approach but I
think it is only a part of the whole.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">1. <strong><em>The shadows
are real</em></strong> but only a part of
the whole. What is needed is a systematic
research from what they are part.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">2. About the whole now I will
use the category theory I have seen you like:</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"><em>CAT<sub>A</sub> => F
=> CAT<sub>B</sub> => G => CAT<sub>C</sub></em></font></div>
<div><font size="4"><em></em></font> </div>
<div><font size="4"><em>CAT<sub>A</sub> => H
=> CAT<sub>C</sub></em></font></div>
<div><em></em> </div>
<div><em><sub><font size="4">F ○ G = H</font></sub></em></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">where</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"><em>F</em>, <em>G</em>, and <em>H</em>
are <em><strong>functors</strong></em>;</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font style=""><font size="4"><em>CAT<sub>II</sub>
<font style="" face="Symbol">
Î</font> CAT</em> is the category of <em><strong>information
interaction categories</strong></em>;</font></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"><em>CAT<sub>A </sub><font
face="Symbol">Î</font> CAT<sub>II</sub></em>
and
<em>CAT<sub>C</sub> <font face="Symbol">Î</font>
CAT<sub>II</sub></em> are the categories of
<strong><em>mental models’ categories</em></strong>;</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"><em>CAT<sub>B</sub> <font
face="Symbol">Î</font> CAT<sub>II</sub></em>
is the category of
<strong><em>models’ categories</em></strong>.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font size="4">Of course, I will explain
this in natural language (English) in
further posts.
</font></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4"><img tabindex="0"
class="x_wlEmoticon x_wlEmoticon-smile"
style="border-style: none; user-select:
none;" alt="Smile"
src="cid:part1.DCF1CC3A.4AFFEF42@ncf.ca"
naturalwidth="19" naturalheight="19"
moz-do-not-send="true"></font></div>
<div>
<div><font size="4">;</font></div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Dear Karl,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Thank you for your post – it
is very useful and I will discus it in further
posts.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">;</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Dear Pedro,</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Thank you for your nice words.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Mathematics is very good to be
used when all know the mathematical languages.</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Unfortunately, only a few
scientists are involved in the mathematical
reasoning, in one hand, and, as the Bourbaki
experiment had shown, not everything is ready
to be formalized.
</font></div>
<div><font size="4">How much of FIS members
understood what I had written above?</font></div>
<div><font size="4">The way starts from
philosophical reasoning and only some times
ends in mathematical formal explanations.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Friendly greetings</font></div>
<div><font size="4">Krassimir</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
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<div class="x_moz-signature">-- <br>
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Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<br>
Philosophy, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban<br>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
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Emeritus Professor and Senior Research Associate<br>
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