[Fis] Is information physical?

Wed Apr 25 10:35:58 CEST 2018

Hi all,

Information is information.
There is no reason to bundle it under any other genus.

There are physical information! (Cf., my paper at the Vienna conference, 
2015.)
... And there are other (non-physical) information.

Other approach:
Information follows, in certain aspects, some laws of physics, and it 
avoids to do so in other instances.
Even following a law of physics doesn't allow to identify the object (in 
our case: information) with physics.

Similar to a well discussed other example: information can be 
characterised by similar mathematics to that of entropy, while this 
similitude does not mean that information as such is entropy.

Good luck,
Gyuri

On 2018.04.25. 6:52, Louis H Kauffman wrote:
> Dear Mark,
> Thank you for suggesting this topic.
> I concur wholeheartedly with your stand on this matter.
> Information in the sense that you indicate
> is pattern that is independent of the particular substrate on which it 
> is ‘carried’.
>
> There is a persistent myth in popular scientific culture that 
> mathematics and the physical are identical.
> Just as information is not physical, neither is mathematics.
> Each mathematical structure is recognizable as mathematics in that it 
> is strictly relational and quite independent of the medium in which it 
> is expressed.
>
> The example of mathematics as information independent of substrate
> is an opening for exploring more deeply the nature of information. For 
> we are all aware
> of the remarkable interplay of mathematics and the quantitative and 
> structural understanding of the physical.
>
> I suspect that the end result of that exploration will be for us to 
> admit that
> we do not know know what is physical,
> that we can deny that information is not physical.
>
> The crux of the matter (sic)
> lies in the distinction made between the physical and the non-physical.
> There is such a distinction.
> The boundary of that distinction is unknown territory.
> Very best,
> Lou Kauffman
>
>
>> On Apr 24, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Burgin, Mark <mburgin at math.ucla.edu 
>> <mailto:mburgin at math.ucla.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> I would like to suggest the new topic for discussion
>>
>> Is information physical?
>>
>> My opinion is presented below:
>>
>>
>>
>> Why some people erroneously think that information is physical
>> The main reason to think that information is physical is the strong 
>> belief of many people, especially, scientists that there is only 
>> physical reality, which is studied by science. At the same time, 
>> people encounter something that they call information.
>> When people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is information 
>> because with the letter they receive information. The letter is 
>> physical, i.e., a physical object. As a result, people start thinking 
>> that information is physical. When people receive an e-mail, they 
>> comprehend that it is information because with the e-mail they 
>> receive information. The e-mail comes to the computer in the form of 
>> electromagnetic waves, which are physical. As a result, people start 
>> thinking even more that information is physical.
>> However, letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all physical 
>> objects are only carriers or containers of information.
>> To understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is possible to 
>> say that this book is knowledge? Any reasonable person will tell that 
>> the textbook contains knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the 
>> same way, the textbook contains information but is not information 
>> itself. The same is true for letters, e-mails, electromagnetic waves 
>> and other physical objects because all of them only contain 
>> information but are not information. For instance, as we know, 
>> different letters can contain the same information. Even if we make 
>> an identical copy of a letter or any other text, then the letter and 
>> its copy will be different physical objects (physical things) but 
>> they will contain the same information.
>> Information belongs to a different (non-physical) world of knowledge, 
>> data and similar essences. In spite of this, information can act on 
>> physical objects (physical bodies) and this action also misleads 
>> people who think that information is physical.
>> One more misleading property of information is that people can 
>> measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption that it is possible 
>> to measure only physical essences. Naturally, this brings people to 
>> the erroneous conclusion that information is physical. However, 
>> measuring information is essentially different than measuring 
>> physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are no “scales” that measure 
>> information. Only human intellect can do this.
>> It is possible to find more explanations that information is not 
>> physical in the general theory of information.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Mark Burgin
>>
>>
>> On 4/24/2018 10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:
>>> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>>>
>>> A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by Mark Burgin 
>>> --he will post at his early convenience.
>>> Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite probably we 
>>> will need to revisit that theme, as it is gaining increasing 
>>> momentum in present "information societies", in science as well as 
>>> in everyday life...
>>> Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and references.
>>>
>>> Best wishes to all,
>>> --Pedro
>>>
>>>   
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>>> -------------------------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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