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<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Hi all,</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Information is information.<br>
There is no reason to bundle it under any other genus.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">There are physical
information! (Cf., my paper at the Vienna conference, 2015.)<br>
... And there are other (non-physical) information.<br>
</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Other approach:<br>
Information follows, in certain aspects, some laws of physics,
and it avoids to do so in other instances. <br>
Even following a law of physics doesn't allow to identify the
object (in our case: information) with physics.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Similar to a well discussed
other example: information can be characterised by similar
mathematics to that of entropy, while this similitude does not
mean that information as such is entropy.</font></font></p>
<p><font size="-1"><font face="Arial">Good luck,<br>
Gyuri</font></font></p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018.04.25. 6:52, Louis H Kauffman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E1138A1C-4A8A-4760-B510-8E62AAB2F6BF@uic.edu">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
Dear Mark,
<div class="">Thank you for suggesting this topic.</div>
<div class="">I concur wholeheartedly with your stand on this
matter.</div>
<div class="">Information in the sense that you indicate </div>
<div class="">is pattern that is independent of the particular
substrate on which it is ‘carried’.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is a persistent myth in popular scientific
culture that mathematics and the physical are identical.</div>
<div class="">Just as information is not physical, neither is
mathematics.</div>
<div class="">Each mathematical structure is recognizable as
mathematics in that it is strictly relational and quite
independent of the medium in which it is expressed.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The example of mathematics as information
independent of substrate </div>
<div class="">is an opening for exploring more deeply the nature
of information. For we are all aware</div>
<div class="">of the remarkable interplay of mathematics and the
quantitative and structural understanding of the physical.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I suspect that the end result of that exploration
will be for us to admit that </div>
<div class="">we do not know know what is physical, </div>
<div class="">that we can deny that information is not physical.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The crux of the matter (sic)</div>
<div class="">lies in the distinction made between the physical
and the non-physical.</div>
<div class="">There is such a distinction. </div>
<div class="">The boundary of that distinction is unknown
territory.</div>
<div class="">Very best,</div>
<div class="">Lou Kauffman</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 24, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Burgin, Mark <<a
href="mailto:mburgin@math.ucla.edu" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mburgin@math.ucla.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Dear
Colleagues,</p>
<p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">I would
like to suggest the new topic for discussion</p>
<p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
Is information physical?<br class="">
</p>
<p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">My
opinion is presented below:<br class="">
</p>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Why
some people erroneously think that information is
physical<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The
main reason to think that information is physical is
the strong belief of many people, especially,
scientists that there is only physical reality, which
is studied by science. At the same time, people
encounter something that they call information.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>When
people receive a letter, they comprehend that it is
information because with the letter they receive
information. The letter is physical, i.e., a physical
object. As a result, people start thinking that
information is physical. When people receive an
e-mail, they comprehend that it is information because
with the e-mail they receive information. The e-mail
comes to the computer in the form of electromagnetic
waves, which are physical. As a result, people start
thinking even more that information is physical.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>However,
letters, electromagnetic waves and actually all
physical objects are only carriers or containers of
information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>To
understand this better, let us consider a textbook. Is
possible to say that this book is knowledge? Any
reasonable person will tell that the textbook contains
knowledge but is not knowledge itself. In the same
way, the textbook contains information but is not
information itself. The same is true for letters,
e-mails, electromagnetic waves and other physical
objects because all of them only contain information
but are not information. For instance, as we know,
different letters can contain the same information.
Even if we make an identical copy of a letter or any
other text, then the letter and its copy will be
different physical objects (physical things) but they
will contain the same information.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Information
belongs to a different (non-physical) world of
knowledge, data and similar essences. In spite of
this, information can act on physical objects
(physical bodies) and this action also misleads people
who think that information is physical.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>One
more misleading property of information is that people
can measure it. This brings an erroneous assumption
that it is possible to measure only physical essences.
Naturally, this brings people to the erroneous
conclusion that information is physical. However,
measuring information is essentially different than
measuring physical quantities, i.e., weight. There are
no “scales” that measure information. Only human
intellect can do this.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10.5pt;
font-family: Consolas; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span class=""><span
class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>It
is possible to find more explanations that information
is not physical in the general theory of information.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">Sincerely,</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">Mark Burgin</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 4/24/2018
10:46 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:19330aa9-0909-d588-732f-a71068769dba@aragon.es"
type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Dear FIS Colleagues,<br
class="">
<br class="">
A very interesting discussion theme has been proposed by
Mark Burgin --he will post at his early convenience.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
Thanks are due to Alberto for his "dataism" piece. Quite
probably we will need to revisit that theme, as it is
gaining increasing momentum in present "information
societies", in science as well as in everyday life...<br
class="">
Thanks also to Sung for his interesting viewpoint and
references.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best wishes to all,<br class="">
--Pedro<font class="" size="+2"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
</font><br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">
-------------------------------------------------
Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es">pcmarijuan.iacs@aragon.es</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/">http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/</a>
------------------------------------------------- </pre>
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