[Fis] Scientific communication
Dai Griffiths
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com
Sat Oct 29 15:47:02 CEST 2016
The dominance of English in the scientific publishing is something that
we have not mentioned in the discussion so far, and it is a very
substantial fact about scientific communication. I take the use of other
languages on this list as a comment on that fact.
Linguistic diversity is a great enricher of human experience, and I can
easily see why one might feel it to be 'malheureuse' that we can't read
scientific literature in our own languages, nor to participate in this
kind of forum. But I myself feel ambivalent about this.
I would argue that the scientific discourse per se is inaccessible to
many people, whatever language it is couched in. So it is not clear to
what extent greater linguistic diversity in scientific publishing would
in fact enhance the sharing of knowledge, even if we went down the route
of linguistic fragmentation.
I'd also point out that English, French, Spanish, Italian etc. have all
busily spent the last couple of hundred years imposing nationalist
programmes to destroy the linguistic diversity within their own borders.
>From this perspective an effort to publish papers in Spanish rather than
English, for example, often looks (to me) like a manifestation of two
imperial cultures struggling for dominance, having already carried out a
scorched earth policy in their own territories.
There are social costs associated with the dominance of English, but
also reasons to celebrate its use as a global language of scientific
communication, and a great enabler of the distribution of scientific
information. But to make sense of the trade-off we must be able to
critique the way that nationalism influences our view of language and
culture. That is a job for:
- English speakers (to rigorously avoid ascribing the dominance of
English to any merit of the language itself, and to learn other
languages in order to inform their communication with an international
audience)
- speakers of other languages with state support (to disentangle
nationalist agendas from a desire for more effective communication)
- speakers of languages that are currently being pushed into irrelevance
or oblivion (to overcome their emotional pain in order to achieve more
effective communication).
If we do not conduct these critiques, we will be unable to make sense of
the relationship between the hegemony of English and the dynamic of
scientific publication. In my view that is an important topic, and
relevant to our understanding of scientific information.
Now you can test the limits of Google Translate if you want (I've tried
to help it!)
Cymraeg nawr:
Yn bersonol liciwn i ymdrin â pynciau fel hyn yn y Gymraeg, ond dwi ddim
yn disgwyl ei wneud, hyd yn oed ym Mhrifysgol Cymru. Hefyd, basa i'n
falch yr ymddwyn y sgwrs yn y Gatalaneg. Sut ydyn ni'n gallu penderfynu
pa ieithoedd sy'n cael mynediad i'r clwb breintiedig sy'n cael eu
defnyddio yng nghylchgronau gwyddonol? Beth bynnag, fel mae'n digwydd
dwi'n gallu deall Ffrangeg ag Eidaleg, a dwi'n hapus braf i ddarllen nhw
ar y rhestr yma. Felly dwi ddim yn wneud sylwadau personol ar neb ar y
rhestr.
Efallai dych chi'm meddwl mod i'n dadlau hwn fel jôc, felly mae'n werth
dweud mod i wedi astudio modiwl ar seicoleg yn y Gymraeg yn y prifysgol,
a chyrsiau PhD yn y Gatalaneg. Does 'na dim problem gyda'r ieithoedd ei
hunain.
Dai
On 28/10/16 23:25, Michel Godron wrote:
>
> Merci pour cette vision très large de ce qu'est l'économie.
>
> Au delà de la musique suggérée par Ilya Prigogine, il a maintenat été
> montré que l'économie, comme l'écologie, est un système de gestion de
> l'information qui donne des réactions pour maintenir le sytème en
> équilibre. Malheureusement, cette démonstration est esquissée en
> anglais seulement dans /Landscape Ecology/.
>
> Cordialement.
> M. Godron
>
>
> Le 26/10/2016 à 16:07, Francesco Rizzo a écrit :
>> Caro Mark,
>> non conosco il pensiero dell'economista che Tu mi indichi. cercherò
>> di superare questa lacuna. Tuttavia, tra l'economia e la storia vi è
>> una differenza di fondo: l'economia è una scienza mediatrice, la
>> storia è una scienza federatrice. Alla domanda "Che cos'è
>> l'economia?" si può rispondere in tanti modi. Per me l'economia è un
>> pensiero che tende a realizzare il massimo risultano col minimo
>> costo. Anch'io adotto la teoria della probabilità soggettiva di J. M.
>> Keynes e ritengo che i sistemi economici siano fondati sui valori
>> normali dal punto di vista soggettivo. Suggerisco inoltre, come ha
>> fatto Ilya Prigogine, di assumere il paradigma della musica come base
>> dell'intera scienza. Compresa quella economica. Tutta la mia vita è
>> stata dedicata alla ricerca della "Nuova economia". Quindi è giusto
>> comunicarlo, senza alcuna presunzione o superbia. Ho inventato
>> davvero una una nuova concezione economica. Complimenti per la tua
>> capacità comunicativa e auguri.
>> Un abbraccio.
>> Francesco
>>
>> 2016-10-26 13:21 GMT+02:00 Mark Johnson <johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>> Dear Jose, Francisco and Pedro, (Pedro - please could you forward if
>> the server won't do it?)
>>
>> First of all, thank you Jose for pointing out this news story. It's
>> interesting to reflect that Alan Sokal's hoax of 1996 (which is
>> similar) was specifically directed at a discourse which he deemed to
>> be unscientific (postmodernism). This one is a nuclear physics
>> conference.... and clearly, nobody cares about the science - this is
>> about money, status and ego: I'm not sure Sokal could see the full
>> extent of this in the 1990s.
>>
>> Francisco, I agree with you about not tarring everything with the
>> same
>> brush. On the other hand, I think it is important not to stop asking
>> fundamental questions, not least "What is economics?". Even great
>> economists like Hayek and Von Mises were not convinced about its
>> subject matter (they thought it should be "Catallactics" - the
>> science
>> of exchange) - and they were even less convinced by the maths! I do
>> recommend Tony Lawson's work for a broader perspective on economic
>> history.
>>
>> Pedro, thank you for a very elegant summary of the complexities
>> of the
>> "science system". I like the study of the nature of information
>> because, rather like cybernetics, it digs away at the foundations of
>> things. There is of course a practical level where we publish papers
>> (which few read) and fall asleep (or get drunk) at conferences (!).
>> But I am arguing that what we think happens in the "brownian motion
>> chamber" of face-to-face communication isn't as impenetrable as we
>> might have thought (Bateson got this) , and that it is profoundly
>> connected not only to what we do with technology, but to the
>> pathologies of communication, marketisation and inauthenticity that
>> Sokal and others point to. This partly falls into the domain of the
>> phenomenologists (Alfred Schutz is important in covering this
>> territory), but also into the domain of artists who communicate in
>> powerfully in different kinds of ways. There's more work to do here.
>>
>> As a very speculative contribution to this, I've done one more video
>> which is an attempt to summarise my argument and tie it to an example
>> of musical communication (a Bach fugue). Alfred Schutz wrote a
>> wonderful paper on music called "Making Music Together"
>> (https://www.jstor.org/stable/40969255
>> <https://www.jstor.org/stable/40969255> - Loet told me about this
>> years
>> ago, and it's one of the few really great academic papers I know). I
>> don't mention Schutz in the video, but I do use John Maynard Keynes's
>> remarkable treatise on probability from 1921.
>>
>> I argue that at the root of our communication practices lie
>> assumptions about 'counting' and 'similarity': we make assumptions
>> about things being the same, we count references (but one
>> reference is
>> not the same as another!), etc; in scientific practice, we make
>> connections between like-observations and causal explanations - all
>> the while losing sight of the possibility that it is us who
>> impose the
>> order of similarity on things. I've found Keynes's idea of 'negative
>> analogy' (see video) useful for looking at this differently, and to
>> explain the patterns perceived in music. I've found understanding
>> this
>> helpful to understand that the "Brownian motion" may also be like
>> this. The process depends on multiple descriptions - which brings
>> things back to my basic argument for the exploitation of rich
>> communications media, etc. I should also say that Loet's ideas on
>> mutual redundancy also fit to this perspective, although there remain
>> deep questions about Shannon and probability.
>>
>> Apologies for the rather crackly sound in parts of the video, but I
>> hope at least some of it makes sense (and I hope I didn't make too
>> many mistakes playing the Bach fugue!)
>>
>> The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeuRlVrTUGU
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeuRlVrTUGU> -
>> "Scientific Communication: From Keynes's Probability theory to a Bach
>> Fugue"
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On 22 October 2016 at 13:18, Jose Javier Blanco Rivero
>> <javierweiss at gmail.com <mailto:javierweiss at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Dear Mark,
>> >
>> > I think this might be of interest for the discussion
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/22/nonsense-paper-written-by-ios-autocomplete-accepted-for-conference
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/22/nonsense-paper-written-by-ios-autocomplete-accepted-for-conference>
>> >
>> > It's a extreme case of economic interest debunking scientific
>> communication.
>> > I think it shows a problem of coding between science and
>> economics. Codes
>> > disambiguate information processing allowing differentiation.
>> Frauds like
>> > these fall in between both codes: they are making money out of
>> science
>> > without making science.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Javier
>> >
>> > El oct 21, 2016 9:06 a.m., "Francesco Rizzo"
>> <13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com <mailto:13francesco.rizzo at gmail.com>>
>> > escribió:
>> >>
>> >> Caro Mark e cari tutti,
>> >> da "Il giudizio di valore" (1972) affermo che la scienza economica
>> >> "normale" doveva essere buttata alle ortiche o
>> nell'immondezzaio, perchè
>> >> "La scienza non può non essere umana, civile, sociale,
>> ECONOMI(C)A,
>> >> enigmatica, nobile, profetica" (2016). Quindi non mi viene
>> facile leggere
>> >> taluni rilievi critici che non possono condividere perché non
>> è giusto fare
>> >> di tutte le erbe un fascio.
>> >> Ho rispetto del pensiero degli altri, ma ritengo sempre
>> opportuno mettere
>> >> i puntini sulle i.
>> >> Francesco
>> >>
>> >> 2016-10-21 14:33 GMT+02:00 Pedro C. Marijuan
>> <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>>:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear Mark and FIS colleagues,
>> >>>
>> >>> It was a pity that our previous replies just crossed in time,
>> otherwise I
>> >>> would have continued along your thinking lines. However, your
>> alternative
>> >>> focus on who has access to the "Brownian chamber motion" is
>> pretty exciting
>> >>> too.
>> >>>
>> >>> Following our FIS colleague Howard Bloom ("The Global Brain",
>> 2000),
>> >>> universities and the like are a social haven for a new type
>> of personality
>> >>> that does not match very well within the social order of
>> things. It is the
>> >>> "Faustian type" of mental explorers, dreamers, creators of
>> thought, etc.
>> >>> Historically they have been extremely important but the way
>> they are treated
>> >>> (even in those "havens" themselves!), well, usually is rather
>> frustrating
>> >>> except for a few fortunate parties. A long list of
>> arch-famous scientific
>> >>> figures ended very badly indeed.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, in this view, people "called to the box" are the
>> Faustians of the
>> >>> locality... But of course, other essential factors impinge on
>> the box
>> >>> composition and inner directions, often very rudely. SCIENTIA
>> POTESTAS EST:
>> >>> it means that as the box's outcomes are so much influential
>> in the
>> >>> technology, religion, culture, richness, prosperity, and
>> military power,
>> >>> etc., a mixing of socio-political interests will impress a
>> tough handling in
>> >>> the external guidance and inner contents of the poor box.
>> >>>
>> >>> And finally, the education --as you have implied-- that very
>> often is
>> >>> deeply imbued with classist structures and class selection.
>> The vitality of
>> >>> the Brownian box would most frequently hang from these
>> educational
>> >>> structures --purses-- for both financing and arrival of new
>> people. And that
>> >>> implies further administrative strings and been involved in
>> frequent
>> >>> bureaucratic internecine conflicts. The book of Gregory Clark
>> (2014, The Son
>> >>> also Raises) is an excellent reading on class "iron
>> statistics" everywhere,
>> >>> particularly in education.
>> >>>
>> >>> E puor si muove! All those burdens have a balance of positive
>> supporting
>> >>> and negative discouraging influences, different in each era.
>> Perhaps far
>> >>> better in our times, but who knows... The good thing relating
>> our discussion
>> >>> is that, from immemorial times, all those Brownian boxes
>> around are
>> >>> wonderfully agitated and refreshed by the external
>> communication flows of
>> >>> scientific publications via the multiple channels (explosive
>> ones today,
>> >>> almost toxic for the Faustian).
>> >>>
>> >>> Maintaining a healthy, open-minded scientific system... easy
>> said than
>> >>> done.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best regards
>> >>> --Pedro
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> El 16/10/2016 a las 16:07, Mark Johnson escribió:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear Pedro,
>> >>>
>> >>> Thank you for bringing this back down to earth again. I would
>> like to
>> >>> challenge something in your first comment - partly because
>> contained
>> >>> within it are issues which connect the science of information
>> with the
>> >>> politics of publishing and elite education.
>> >>>
>> >>> Your 'bet' that "that oral exchange continues to be the central
>> >>> vehicle. It is the "Brownian Motion" that keeps running and
>> infuses
>> >>> vitality to the entire edifice of science." is of course right.
>> >>> However, there is a political/critical issue as to who has
>> ACCESS to
>> >>> the chamber with the Brownian motion.
>> >>>
>> >>> It is common for elite private schools in the UK (and I'm sure
>> >>> elsewhere) to say "exams aren't important to us. What matters
>> are the
>> >>> things around the edges of formal education... character-building
>> >>> activities, contact with the elite, etc". What they mean is
>> that they
>> >>> don't worry about exams because their processes of
>> pre-selection and
>> >>> 'hot-housing' mean that all their students will do well in exams
>> >>> anyway. But nobody would argue that exams are not important for
>> >>> personal advancement in today's society, would they?
>> >>>
>> >>> Similarly, elite universities may say "published papers are
>> not that
>> >>> important - what happens face-to-face is what matters!". Those
>> >>> universities do not have to worry so much about publishing in
>> >>> high-quality journals because (often) the editors of those
>> journals
>> >>> are employed by those universities. But when, at least in the
>> last 10
>> >>> years or so, did anybody get an academic job in a university
>> with no
>> >>> publications?
>> >>>
>> >>> I draw attention to this not because it seems like a stitch-up
>> >>> (although it is). It is because it skews what you call the
>> "Brownian
>> >>> motion". At worst we end up with the kind of prejudice that was
>> >>> expressed by Professor Tim Hunt last year
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/10/nobel-scientist-tim-hunt-female-scientists-cause-trouble-for-men-in-labs
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/10/nobel-scientist-tim-hunt-female-scientists-cause-trouble-for-men-in-labs>).
>> >>> More fundamentally, the doubts and uncertainties of the many
>> are very
>> >>> important, and in this system, they are not only not heard,
>> but in the
>> >>> increasingly rarefied and and specialised exchanges in the
>> "Brownian
>> >>> motion chamber", as the elite scholars endlessly discuss
>> ontological
>> >>> arguments for the existence of information (!), everyone else is
>> >>> effectively locked-out.
>> >>>
>> >>> The economic crisis and the economists is a good example of
>> this kind
>> >>> of pathology. It was pretty obvious that the economic system was
>> >>> heading for trouble quite some time before 2008; it was also
>> obvious
>> >>> to a few economists on the fringes (who became very
>> unpopular) that
>> >>> economics was in a mess many years before, concocted out of
>> spurious
>> >>> mathematical models and a published discourse which would
>> admit little
>> >>> else. As Tony Lawson says here (this is worth watching:
>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vMLHis5cE
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vMLHis5cE>), after the crisis it's
>> >>> easier to claim that economics is in a mess. But doing
>> something about
>> >>> it is a different matter.
>> >>>
>> >>> As a side note about Brownian motion: Tony Lawson is based in
>> >>> Cambridge as has, over the last 20 years, held a bi-weekly
>> seminar
>> >>> series open to all called the Cambridge Realist Workshop.
>> Some of the
>> >>> brightest minds in the University attend these. They all have
>> deep
>> >>> discussions about economics, ontology, society... basically,
>> about
>> >>> "everyone else". But "everyone else" isn't in the room.
>> >>>
>> >>> This is the problem. Were "everyone else" to be there, for it
>> to be
>> >>> truly open, honest and democratic.... I think we would have a
>> better
>> >>> science of society, information, education, etc... A small
>> step to
>> >>> achieving this is to communicate our doubts in different,
>> more open
>> >>> and more creative ways.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>>
>> >>> Mark
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> -------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Pedro C. Marijuán
>> >>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
>> >>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
>> >>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
>> >>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
>> >>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
>> >>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 <tel:%2B34%20976%2071%203526> (& 6818)
>> >>> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es <mailto:pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
>> <http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/>
>> >>> -------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>>
>> --
>> Dr. Mark William Johnson
>> Institute of Learning and Teaching
>> Faculty of Health and Life Sciences
>> University of Liverpool
>>
>> Visiting Professor
>> Far Eastern Federal University, Russia
>>
>> Phone: 07786 064505
>> Email: johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com <mailto:johnsonmwj1 at gmail.com>
>> Blog: http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com
>> <http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com>
>>
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--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
Deane Road
Bolton, BL3 5AB
Office: T3 02
http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC
SKYPE: daigriffiths
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