[Fis] What is information? and What is life?
Dai Griffiths
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com
Thu Dec 29 21:30:48 CET 2016
Thanks Stan,
Yes, it's a powerful and useful process.
My problem is that in this list, and in other places were such matters
are discussed, we don't seem to be able to agree on the big picture, and
the higher up the generalisations we go, the less we agree.
I'd like to keep open the possibility that we might be yoking ideas
together which it may be more useful to keep apart. We are dealing with
messy concepts in messy configurations, which may not always map neatly
onto a generalisation model.
Dai
On 22/12/16 16:45, Stanley N Salthe wrote:
>
> Dai --
>
> {phenomenon 1}
>
> {phenomenon 2} --> {Phenomena 1 & 2} ---> {phenomena 1.2,3}
>
> {phenomenon 3}
>
> The process from left to right is generalization.
>
> ‘Information’ IS a generalization.
>
> generalities form the substance of philosophy. Info happens to a case
>
> of generalization which can be mathematized, which in turn allows
>
> it to be generalized even more.
>
> So, what’s the problem?
>
> STAN
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 7:44 AM, Dai Griffiths
> <dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com <mailto:dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > Information is not “something out there” which “exists”
> otherwise than as our construct.
>
> I agree with this. And I wonder to what extent our problems in
> discussing information come from our desire to shoe-horn many
> different phenomena into the same construct. It would be possible
> to disaggregate the construct. It be possible to discuss the
> topics which we address on this list without using the word
> 'information'. We could discuss redundancy, variety, constraint,
> meaning, structural coupling, coordination, expectation, language,
> etc.
>
> In what ways would our explanations be weakened?
>
> In what ways might we gain in clarity?
>
> If we were to go down this road, we would face the danger that our
> discussions might become (even more) remote from everyday human
> experience. But many scientific discussions are remote from
> everyday human experience.
>
> Dai
>
> On 20/12/16 08:26, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> A distribution contains uncertainty that can be measured in terms
>> of bits of information.
>>
>> Alternatively: the expected information content /H /of a
>> probability distribution is .
>>
>> /H/is further defined as probabilistic entropy using Gibb’s
>> formulation of the entropy .
>>
>> This definition of information is an operational definition. In
>> my opinion, we do not need an essentialistic definition by
>> answering the question of “what is information?” As the
>> discussion on this list demonstrates, one does not easily agree
>> on an essential answer; one can answer the question “how is
>> information defined?” Information is not “something out there”
>> which “exists” otherwise than as our construct.
>>
>> Using essentialistic definitions, the discussion tends not to
>> move forward. For example, Stuart Kauffman’s and Bob Logan’s
>> (2007) definition of information “as natural selection assembling
>> the very constraints on the release of energy that then
>> constitutes work and the propagation of organization.” I asked
>> several times what this means and how one can measure this
>> information. Hitherto, I only obtained the answer that colleagues
>> who disagree with me will be cited. JAnother answer was that
>> “counting” may lead to populism. J
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Loet
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Loet Leydesdorff
>>
>> Professor, University of Amsterdam
>> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)
>>
>> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>loet at leydesdorff.net
>> <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net> ;
>> <http://www.leydesdorff.net/>http://www.leydesdorff.net/
>> Associate Faculty, SPRU,
>> <http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/>University of Sussex;
>>
>> Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ. <http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/>,
>> Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC,
>> <http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html>Beijing;
>>
>> Visiting Professor, Birkbeck <http://www.bbk.ac.uk/>, University
>> of London;
>>
>> <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en>http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en
>> <http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en>
>>
>> *From:*Dick Stoute [mailto:dick.stoute at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Monday, December 19, 2016 12:48 PM
>> *To:* loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>
>> *Cc:* James Peters; ulan at umces.edu <mailto:ulan at umces.edu>; Alex
>> Hankey; FIS Webinar
>> *Subject:* Re: [Fis] What is information? and What is life?
>>
>> List,
>>
>> Please allow me to respond to Loet about the definition of
>> information stated below.
>>
>> 1. the definition of information as uncertainty is
>> counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)
>>
>> I agree. I struggled with this definition for a long time before
>> realising that Shannon was really discussing "amount of
>> information" or the number of bits needed to convey a message.
>> He was looking for a formula that would provide an accurate
>> estimate of the number of bits needed to convey a message and
>> realised that the amount of information (number of bits) needed
>> to convey a message was dependent on the "amount" of uncertainty
>> that had to be eliminated and so he equated these.
>>
>> It makes sense to do this, but we must distinguish between
>> "amount of information" and "information". For example, we can
>> measure amount of water in liters, but this does not tell us what
>> water is and likewise the measure we use for "amount of
>> information" does not tell us what information is. We can, for
>> example equate the amount of water needed to fill a container
>> with the volume of the container, but we should not think that
>> water is therefore identical to an empty volume. Similarly we
>> should not think that information is identical to uncertainty.
>>
>> By equating the number of bits needed to convey a message with
>> the "amount of uncertainty" that has to be eliminated Shannon, in
>> effect, equated opposites so that he could get an estimate of the
>> number of bits needed to eliminate the uncertainty. We should
>> not therefore consider that this equation establishes what
>> information is.
>>
>> Dick
>>
>> On 18 December 2016 at 15:05, Loet Leydesdorff
>> <loet at leydesdorff.net <mailto:loet at leydesdorff.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear James and colleagues,
>>
>> Weaver (1949) made two major remarks about his coauthor
>> (Shannon)'s contribution:
>>
>> 1. the definition of information as uncertainty is
>> counter-intuitive ("bizarre"); (p. 27)
>>
>> 2. "In particular, information must not be confused with
>> meaning." (p. 8)
>>
>> The definition of information as relevant for a system of
>> reference confuses information with "meaningful information" and
>> thus sacrifices the surplus value of Shannon's counter-intuitive
>> definition.
>>
>> information observer
>>
>> that integrates interactive processes such as
>>
>> physical interactions such photons stimulating the retina of the
>> eye, human-machine interactions (this is the level that Shannon
>> lives on), biological interaction such body temperature relative
>> to touch ice or heat source, social interaction such as this
>> forum started by Pedro, economic interaction such as the stock
>> market, ... [Lerner, page 1].
>>
>> We are in need of a theory of meaning. Otherwise, one cannot
>> measure meaningful information. In a previous series of
>> communications we discussed redundancy from this perspective.
>>
>> Lerner introduces mathematical expectation E[Sap] (difference
>> between of a priory entropy [sic] and a posteriori entropy),
>> which is distinguished from the notion of relative information
>> Iap (Learner, page 7).
>>
>> ) expresses in bits of information the information generated when
>> the a priori distribution is turned into the a posteriori one .
>> This follows within the Shannon framework without needing an
>> observer. I use this equation, for example, in my 1995-book /The
>> Challenge of Scientometrics/ (Chapters 8 and 9), with a reference
>> to Theil (1972). The relative information is defined as the
>> /H///H/(max).
>>
>> I agree that the intuitive notion of information is derived from
>> the Latin “in-formare” (Varela, 1979). But most of us do no
>> longer use “force” and “mass” in the intuitive (Aristotelian)
>> sense. JThe proliferation of the meanings of information if
>> confused with “meaningful information” is indicative for an
>> “index sui et falsi”, in my opinion. The repetitive discussion
>> lames the progression at this list. It is “like asking whether a
>> glass is half empty or half full” (Hayles, 1990, p. 59).
>>
>> This act of forming forming an information process results in the
>> construction of an observer that is the owner [holder] of
>> information.
>>
>> The system of reference is then no longer the message, but the
>> observer who provides meaning to the information (uncertainty). I
>> agree that this is a selection process, but the variation first
>> has to be specified independently (before it can be selected.
>>
>> And Lerner introduces the threshold between objective and
>> subjective observes (page 27). This leads to a consideration
>> selection and cooperation that includes entanglement.
>>
>> I don’t see a direct relation between information and
>> entanglement. An observer can be entangled.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Loet
>>
>> PS. Pedro: Let me assume that this is my second posting in the
>> week which ends tonight. L.
>>
>>
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>>
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> --
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
> Professor of Education
> School of Education and Psychology
> The University of Bolton
> Deane Road
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--
-----------------------------------------
Professor David (Dai) Griffiths
Professor of Education
School of Education and Psychology
The University of Bolton
Deane Road
Bolton, BL3 5AB
Office: T3 02
http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC
SKYPE: daigriffiths
UK Mobile +44 (0)7491151559
Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912
Work: + 44 (0)7826917705
(Please don't leave voicemail)
email:
d.e.griffiths at bolton.ac.uk
dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com
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