[Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel, Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1

[Joseph Brenner]

Dear Nikhil,

I think it is a very interesting exercise to see how a consensus might be 
reached on your work by both adding to and subtracting from the different 
perspectives. Thus, I agree with Stan that we are looking at instances of 
isomorphism at different levels, and this for me is entirely logical (;-). 
Levels of reality exist and the rules that apply in them are not identical, 
and this constitutes a discontinuity between them. Also, within a given 
level involving three elements, even if they all influence one another, it 
should be possible to decompose the interactions into those between A and B, 
the resultant of which interacts with C. This is Pedro's comment in somewhat 
different terms.

On the other hand, as I have argued elsewhere, the use of the term 
'self-organization' does not bring any additional knowledge. It diverts 
attention from the dynamics of the different flows, which are also affected 
by such a multitude of external factors, actual and potential, that the 
process could equally well be called hetero-organization.  Also, and I 
really just ask this as a question, how does the concept of hierarchy affect 
the analysis? If as you write there are different species involved in 
exchange networks across ascending levels, what would be important to know 
are the details of these exchanges. Here, the above discontinuity between 
levels seems to be replaced by a degree of continuity. Your statement 
implies to me interactions /between/ different levels, but are these 
interactions bi-directional reactions? How would the rates of forward and 
back reactions be related?

I look forward to your comments on the above which I assure you is intended 
to be constructive.

Best wishes,

Joseph



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pedro C. Marijuan" <pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es>
To: <fis at listas.unizar.es>
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel, 
Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1


> Dear Nikhil and colleagues (Bob, Stan...),
>
> Let me concur with Stan's arguments.  I think you are working with 
> original ideas about two different instances of self-organization in 
> Nature where  metabolic-energetic flows  are modulated  by third parties 
> in order to maintain some maximum of stability in a very complex 
> co-assemblage so that it may result compatible with the existing 
> limitations of the global environment. It is sort of a fiscal agency or an 
> energy police-body that keeps an overall adaptive order in the 
> multifarious exchange of flows.
>
> The two instances you describe are widely independent, in spite of the 
> relative links existing (in the ecosphere, it is very difficult the 
> complete independence). Forcing them into a hierarchy is not the best 
> idea, in my opinion, as the two description are quite interesting, 
> original, and advanced by themselves--particularly in order to land on the 
> global problems of the economic order of our times. Connecting 
> meaningfully with the path discussed by Bob and his colleagues requires 
> quite a bit of further thinking. Economic organization is based finally on 
> symmetry and symmetry breaking at different "levels" (just from the 
> double-entry accounting of the agent to the collective market prices and 
> valuation of stocks, to the financial coupling with the "real" economy). 
> Like in the biological organization of information flows, there is a 
> generalized dialectics of balances and modulations, of symmetry and 
> symmetry breakings, yes, in some hierarchical framework. Unfortunately the 
> information/symmetry topic is far from being properly developed as a 
> "complexity engine", except maybe in physics, and we prefer indulging in 
> independent disciplinary conceptualizations, preferably inspired in 
> mechanics, that obfuscate understanding.
>
> It is a rather difficult discussion... Further efforts from yours and your 
> colleagues, and other parties in the list would be needed.  From my part, 
> this weekend I will re-read your papers and Bob's links. We cannot 
> renounce to advance in this discussion.
>
> All the best--Pedro
>
>
> Nikhil Joshi wrote:
>>> Dear Stan,
>>> You raise a very interesting and important question.
>>
>> Recent findings suggest that mycorrhiza could modulate the rate of 
>> assimilation of molecules (driven by changing rates of photosynthesis) 
>> across groups of plants by modulating the flow of phosphorous (from the 
>> subsoil sources) across competing autotrophic species. Such modulation 
>> alters the overall conversion of geochemical (molecular) resources into 
>> biomass. Hence the modulatory effects of mycorrhizal modulation are at 
>> the level of molecular flows between geo-cycles and autotrophs (level 1).
>>
>> What is suggested here is that gut bacteria are involved in the 
>> modulation of rate of reproduction of cellular and multicellular species. 
>> Hence their effect is at a cellular level (level 2)
>> Hence the activities of the two modulator systems are at two different 
>> scales- molecular and cellular.
>> A multilevel view reveals a growing complexity in the species involved in 
>> exchange networks across ascending levels (compositional hierarchy) from 
>> molecules, to cells, multicellular species, and social Organization. A 
>> compositional hierarchy is also seen at each level in the emergence of 
>> community structure at each level. However, I agree that these 
>> observations do not constitute a complete description of the hierarchal 
>> relationships in these systems. The developing a formal hierarchical view 
>> would provide much clearer view of these systems and their 
>> interconnections. Given my limited knowledge of formal hierarchies, I 
>> would appreciate your assurance and views on this. Thanking you, Warm 
>> regards,
>> Nikhil
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Nikhil Joshi
>
>
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------
> Pedro C. Marijuán
> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain
> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
> pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fis mailing list
> Fis at listas.unizar.es
> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
>