[Fis] Sustainability through multilevel research: The Lifel, Deep Society Build-A-Thon - 1

[Pedro C. Marijuan]

Dear Nikhil and colleagues (Bob, Stan...),

Let me concur with Stan's arguments.  I think you are working with 
original ideas about two different instances of self-organization in  
Nature where  metabolic-energetic flows  are modulated  by third parties 
in order to maintain some maximum of stability in a very complex 
co-assemblage so that it may result compatible with the existing 
limitations of the global environment. It is sort of a fiscal agency or 
an energy police-body that keeps an overall adaptive order in the 
multifarious exchange of flows.

The two instances you describe are widely independent, in spite of the 
relative links existing (in the ecosphere, it is very difficult the 
complete independence). Forcing them into a hierarchy is not the best 
idea, in my opinion, as the two description are quite interesting, 
original, and advanced by themselves--particularly in order to land on 
the global problems of the economic order of our times. Connecting 
meaningfully with the path discussed by Bob and his colleagues requires 
quite a bit of further thinking. Economic organization is based finally 
on symmetry and symmetry breaking at different "levels" (just from the 
double-entry accounting of the agent to the collective market prices and 
valuation of stocks, to the financial coupling with the "real" economy). 
Like in the biological organization of information flows, there is a 
generalized dialectics of balances and modulations, of symmetry and 
symmetry breakings, yes, in some hierarchical framework. Unfortunately 
the information/symmetry topic is far from being properly developed as a 
"complexity engine", except maybe in physics, and we prefer indulging in 
independent disciplinary conceptualizations, preferably inspired in 
mechanics, that obfuscate understanding.

It is a rather difficult discussion... Further efforts from yours and 
your colleagues, and other parties in the list would be needed.  From my 
part, this weekend I will re-read your papers and Bob's links. We cannot 
renounce to advance in this discussion.

All the best--Pedro


Nikhil Joshi wrote:
>> Dear Stan,
>> You raise a very interesting and important question.
>
> Recent findings suggest that mycorrhiza could modulate the rate of 
> assimilation of molecules (driven by changing rates of photosynthesis) 
> across groups of plants by modulating the flow of phosphorous (from 
> the subsoil sources) across competing autotrophic species. Such 
> modulation alters the overall conversion of geochemical (molecular) 
> resources into biomass. Hence the modulatory effects of mycorrhizal 
> modulation are at the level of molecular flows between geo-cycles and 
> autotrophs (level 1).
>
> What is suggested here is that gut bacteria are involved in the 
> modulation of rate of reproduction of cellular and multicellular 
> species. Hence their effect is at a cellular level (level 2)
> Hence the activities of the two modulator systems are at two different 
> scales- molecular and cellular. 
>
> A multilevel view reveals a growing complexity in the species involved 
> in exchange networks across ascending levels (compositional hierarchy) 
> from molecules, to cells, multicellular species, and social 
> Organization. A compositional hierarchy is also seen at each level in 
> the emergence of community structure at each level. However, I agree 
> that these observations do not constitute a complete description of 
> the hierarchal relationships in these systems. The developing a formal 
> hierarchical view would provide much clearer view of these systems and 
> their interconnections. Given my limited knowledge of formal 
> hierarchies, I would appreciate your assurance and views on this. 
> Thanking you, 
> Warm regards,
> Nikhil 
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Nikhil Joshi


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Pedro C. Marijuán
Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group
Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud
Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA)
Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X
50009 Zaragoza, Spain
Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818)
pcmarijuan.iacs at aragon.es
http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/
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