[Fis] What are "information" and "science"?

[Dai Griffiths]

Thanks Loet, that is helpful, and makes intuitively good sense. But I 
remain puzzled. I see two distinct cases:

Case 1: For molecules 'communication' consists of interaction between 
the molecules themselves, resulting in biology.
Similarly, for atoms 'communication' consists of interaction between the 
atoms themselves. They bang into each other and exchange their components.

Case 2: For words and sentences (in my view of the world) it is human 
beings who communicate, not words and sentences. From a Maturana 
perspective, language is a recursive coordination between autopoietic 
entities, not interaction between linguistic items.

In case 1, there is no mediating domain. Molecules and atoms interact 
directly.

But in case 2, there is a hierarchy. Communication is between human 
beings, but interaction is through words and sentences in a linguistic 
domain. When I respond to your email, I do not have an effect on that 
email. Rather, I hope to have an effect on your thought processes.

Of course there are other interactions between people which correspond 
to my case 1, for example when someone barges another person out of the 
way, or when they dance together. But I think Maturana would distinguish 
these examples by describing them in terms of structural coupling rather 
than languaging.

By calling both of these cases 'communication' we gain some valuable 
traction on patterns of interaction in different domains. But I am 
concerned that we also make it more difficult to disentangle our idea of 
what information is, by equating it with a catch-all notion of 
'communication'.

Dai


On 20/05/15 11:12, Loet Leydesdorff wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I see "informational processes" as essentially being proto-scientific 
> – how is any "science" not an informational process?
>
> The sciences, in my opinion, are different in terms of what is 
> communicated. As Maturana noted, the communication of molecules 
> generates a biology. Similarly, the communication of atoms generates a 
> chemistry, etc. The communication of words and sentences generates the 
> interhuman domain of communication. One can also communicate in terms 
> of symbolic media such as money. This can be reflected by economics.
>
> Thus, the sciences are different. The formal perspective (of the 
> mathematical theory of communication) provides us with tools to move 
> metaphors heuristically from one domain to another. The assumption 
> that the mathematics is general is over-stated, in my opinion. One has 
> to carefully check and elaborate after each translation from one 
> domain to another. In this sense, I agree with “proto-scientific”.
>
> Best,
>
> Loet
>
> First, I think this places me in the camp of Peirce's view. Second, I 
> am unsure of how to regard the focus on "higher-order" 
> interdisciplinary discussions when a much more essential view of 
> lower-order roles (i.e., What are science and information?) has not 
> been first established.
>
>     From my "naive" view I find myself wondering how "informational 
> process" is not the ONE overarching discipline from which all other 
> disciplines are born (is this too "psychological" of a framework?). As 
> such, I argue for one great discipline . . . and thus wouldn't try to 
> frame my view in terms of "science," mostly because I am unclear on 
> how the term "science" is being formally used here. Thoughts?
>
> *Marcus Abundis*
>
> about.me/marcus.abundis
>
>
>
>
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-- 
-----------------------------------------

Professor David (Dai) Griffiths

Professor of Educational Cybernetics
Institute for Educational Cybernetics (IEC)
The University of Bolton
http://www.bolton.ac.uk/IEC

SKYPE: daigriffiths
UK Mobile: + 44 (0)7826917705
Spanish Mobile: + 34 687955912
email: dai.griffiths.1 at gmail.com

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