[Fis] Fw: It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM

[Joseph Brenner]

Dear Terry,

I agree with the distinction you make between the two types of properties indicated, but I wish you had stated your point positively. I hope we are all not so lazy as not to be able to use modifers such as 'meaningful' with information,as Loet suggests. If one does not, does that mean that one will be in a position to establish a single monolithic interpretation for information? In the exchange below, there is thus a faint perfume of reductionism that floats around the focus on properties of informational entities without reference to the necessary energetic processes of their production, transmission and reception. But your post was less than four full lines . . .

Best,

Joseph


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Terrence W. DEACON 
To: Marcus Abundis 
Cc: fis 
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM


Dear Marcus,


Thank you for this simple and absolutely essential intervention. Allowing ourselves the freedom to use the same term—'information' which is the defining term for this entire enterprise—for such different relationships as intrinsic signal properties and extrinsic referential and normative properties is a recipe for irrelevance. 


— Terry


On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <loet at leydesdorff.net> wrote:

  Dear Marcus and colleagues, 



  Katherine Hayles (1990, pp. 59f.) compared this discussion about the definition of “information” with asking whether a glass is half empty or half full. Shannon-type information is a measure of the variation or uncertainty, whereas Bateson’s “difference which makes a difference” presumes a system of reference for which the information can make a difference and thus be meaningful. 



  In my opinion, the advantage of measuring uncertainty in bits cannot be underestimated, since the operationalization and the measurement provide avenues to hypothesis testing and thus control of speculation (Theil, 1972). However, the semantic confusion can also be solved by using the words “uncertainty” or “probabilistic entropy” when Shannon-type information is meant.



  I note that “a difference which makes a difference” cannot so easily be measured. J I agree that it is more precise to speak of “meaningful information” in that case. The meaning has to be specified in the system of reference (e.g., physics and/or biology).



  Best,

  Loet





  References:



  Hayles, N. K. (1990). Chaos Bound; Orderly Disorder in Contemporary Literature and Science Ithaca, etc.: Cornell University.

  Theil, H. (1972). Statistical Decomposition Analysis. Amsterdam/ London: North-Holland.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Loet Leydesdorff 

  Emeritus University of Amsterdam
  Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR)

  loet at leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ 
  Honorary Professor, SPRU, University of Sussex; 

  Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing;

  Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; 

  http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en



  From: Fis [mailto:fis-bounces at listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Marcus Abundis
  Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 7:02 PM
  To: fis at listas.unizar.es
  Subject: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of QM



  Dear Andrei,



      I would ask for clarification on whether you speak of "information" in your examples as something that has innate "meaning" or something that is innately "meaningless" . . . which has been a core issue in earlier exchanges. If this issue of "meaning" versus "meaningless" in the use of the term "information" is not resolved (for the group?) it seems hard (to me) to have truly meaningful exchanges . . . without having to put a "meaningful" or "meaningless" qualifier in front of "information" every time it is use.



  Thanks.



       


              Marcus Abundis

              about.me/marcus.abundis
             

             

          
       
       




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-- 

Professor Terrence W. Deacon
University of California, Berkeley


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