<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6002.19383" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Terry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree with the distinction you make between the
two types of properties indicated, but I wish you had stated your point
positively. I hope we are all not so lazy as not to be able to use
modifers such as 'meaningful' with information,as Loet suggests. If one does
not, does that mean that one will be in a position to establish a single
monolithic interpretation for information? In the exchange below, there is
thus</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> a faint perfume of reductionism that floats
around the focus on properties of informational entities without reference to
the necessary energetic processes of their production, transmission and
reception.</FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>But your post was less than four
full lines . . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Joseph</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=deacon@berkeley.edu href="mailto:deacon@berkeley.edu">Terrence W.
DEACON</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=55mrcs@gmail.com href="mailto:55mrcs@gmail.com">Marcus
Abundis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fis@listas.unizar.es
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es">fis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 26, 2015 9:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fis] It-from-Bit and information interpretation of
QM</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Marcus,
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for this simple and absolutely essential intervention. Allowing
ourselves the freedom to use the same term—'information' which is the defining
term for this entire enterprise—for such different relationships as intrinsic
signal properties and extrinsic referential and normative properties is a recipe
for irrelevance. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>— Terry</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Loet Leydesdorff <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
target=_blank>loet@leydesdorff.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dear
Marcus and colleagues, <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Katherine
Hayles (1990, pp. 59f.) compared this discussion about the definition of
“information” with asking whether a glass is half empty or half full.
Shannon-type information is a measure of the variation or uncertainty, whereas
Bateson’s “difference which makes a difference” presumes a system of reference
for which the information can make a difference and thus be meaningful.
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">In
my opinion, the advantage of measuring uncertainty in bits cannot be
underestimated, since the operationalization and the measurement provide
avenues to hypothesis testing and thus control of speculation (Theil, 1972).
However, the semantic confusion can also be solved by using the words
“uncertainty” or “probabilistic entropy” when Shannon-type information is
meant.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
note that “a difference which makes a difference” cannot so easily be
measured. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
I agree that it is more precise to speak of “meaningful information” in that
case. The meaning has to be specified in the system of reference (e.g.,
physics and/or biology).<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Best,<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">References:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hayles,
N. K. (1990). <I>Chaos Bound; Orderly Disorder in Contemporary Literature and
Science </I>Ithaca, etc.: Cornell University.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Theil,
H. (1972). <I>Statistical Decomposition Analysis</I>. Amsterdam/ London:
North-Holland.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Loet
Leydesdorff <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
University of Amsterdam<BR>Amsterdam School of Communication Research
(ASCoR)<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net href="mailto:loet@leydesdorff.net"
target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">loet@leydesdorff.net
</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
title=http://www.leydesdorff.net/ href="http://www.leydesdorff.net/"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://www.leydesdorff.net/</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Honorary
Professor, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.sussex.ac.uk/spru/" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">SPRU, </SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">University
of Sussex; <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Guest
Professor </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Zhejiang Univ.</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.istic.ac.cn/Eng/brief_en.html" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">ISTIC, </SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Beijing;<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Visiting
Professor, </SPAN><A name=14e30efbc6a35609__GoBack></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.bbk.ac.uk/" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Birkbeck</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">,
University of London; <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt">http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYAAAAJ&hl=en</SPAN></A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #44546a; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Fis [mailto:<A
href="mailto:fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis-bounces@listas.unizar.es</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Marcus
Abundis<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 26, 2015 7:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:fis@listas.unizar.es"
target=_blank>fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> [Fis] It-from-Bit
and information interpretation of QM<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Dear Andrei,<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"> I would ask for
clarification on whether you speak of "information" in your examples as
something that has innate "meaning" or something that is innately
"meaningless" . . . which has been a core issue in earlier exchanges. If this
issue of "meaning" versus "meaningless" in the use of the term "information"
is not resolved (for the group?) it seems hard (to me) to have truly
meaningful exchanges . . . without having to put a "meaningful" or
"meaningless" qualifier in front of "information" every time it is
use.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">Thanks.<BR
clear=all><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; outline: 0px; border-spacing: 0px"
cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 22.5pt; outline: 0px">
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; WIDTH: 103.6pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; HEIGHT: 22.5pt; outline: 0px"
vAlign=bottom width=187>
<P class=MsoNormal style="LINE-HEIGHT: 13.5pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'inherit','serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></TD></TR>
<TR style="outline: 0px">
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; WIDTH: 103.6pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; outline: 0px"
vAlign=bottom width=187>
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR style="outline: 0px">
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; WIDTH: 0.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=top width=1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'inherit','serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Marcus
Abundis<U></U><U></U></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 2.25pt; outline: 0px">
<P class=MsoNormal style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://about.me/marcus.abundis"
target=_blank>about.me/marcus.abundis</A><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR style="outline: 0px">
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; WIDTH: 0.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 6pt; outline: 0px"
vAlign=top width=1>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #c5d0e0; VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline; TEXT-ALIGN: right"
align=right><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'inherit','serif'"><IMG
height=4
alt=http://d13pix9kaak6wt.cloudfront.net/signature/colorbar.png
src="cid:FCC4E016FF0F40F9AD6C21AA4681E042@PCdeJoseph" width=88
border=0></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'inherit','serif'"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="VERTICAL-ALIGN: baseline; LINE-HEIGHT: 0%"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'inherit','serif'">
<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></TD></TR>
<TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt; outline: 0px">
<TD
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; WIDTH: 103.6pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; HEIGHT: 15pt; outline: 0px"
vAlign=bottom width=187></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:Fis@listas.unizar.es">Fis@listas.unizar.es</A><BR><A
href="http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis" target=_blank
rel=noreferrer>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>--
<BR>
<DIV class=gmail_signature>Professor Terrence W. Deacon<BR>University of
California, Berkeley</DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Fis mailing
list<BR>Fis@listas.unizar.es<BR>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis<BR></BODY></HTML>